Regarding recent Phoneutria for sale in USA

[Fran]

What about Poecilotheria. I've seen bite reports that had a grown man going to the hospital. What would that do to a child? The bottom line is that as keepers we bare responcibility for our animals. If you can't keep Phoneutria, you shouldn't try. But that argument also goes for pokies and a few other tarantul species. Personally I've kept several hot species for years now. If I start a family I'd consider what that means to me as a keeper. I've never been bitten or stung. Simple precations are what is needed. A lock on the door goes a long way. Education goes longer.


JOhn

As its been said already, Phoneutria cant compare to Poecilotheria.

A lock on the door means nothing, again accidents happen,even to the most experience keepers.
I dont know about you but I love my family way too much to jeopardize my wifes life or mine just for the desire of keeping the spider inside a tank.
Stupidity is an understatement here.

 

[just1moreT]

well i thought i would just have to say something
people need to just keep there opinions to there self sometimes , yeah you elvasco . i could see if you had been posting here for a good time, but i really think your just trying to start problems . maybe cause a up roar, when there is no reason for one .bees kill people to , people kill people , there is a chance of death in just about anything we humans do

i bet the people who decide to buy these spiders and keep them will respect them for what they are. and let others know as well if they are a hot sp.

this is finally a hobbie i have found that i enjoy and can afford for the most part . and low and behold somebody wants to try and cause problems. by trying to bring politics into it

 

[PaMBiX]

well i thought i would just have to say something
people need to just keep there opinions to there self sometimes , yeah you elvasco . i could see if you had been posting here for a good time, but i really think your just trying to start problems . maybe cause a up roar, when there is no reason for one .bees kill people to , people kill people , there is a chance of death in just about anything we humans do

i bet the people who decide to buy these spiders and keep them will respect them for what they are. and let others know as well if they are a hot sp.

this is finally a hobbie i have found that i enjoy and can afford for the most part . and low and behold somebody wants to try and cause problems. by trying to bring politics into it

amen to that! word for word what i was thinking, who cares if so and so would not own one and so and so would? guess what!? it's their business if they want one in their home, it's ken business (and whoever else) if they want to sell them. if you don't want one, then don't buy one and move on. i promise they won't grow wings, learn to breathe fire, and take over the world.

 

[Fran]

amen to that! word for word what i was thinking, who cares if so and so would not own one and so and so would? guess what!? it's their business if they want one in their home, it's ken business (and whoever else) if they want to sell them. if you don't want one, then don't buy one and move on. i promise they won't grow wings, learn to breathe fire, and take over the world.

Unfortunately the world is full of fools. Not to give ideas but what if someone decide to put one ina packet and send it to someone , that someone opens the package thinking there are "Ferrero Rocher" , get bitten and die?
What if thanks to your stupidity the spider get loose and I get bitten?

This is not only "your bussines". Not at all.

Its people like that the ones responsable to all the banns. Stupid people which never should own anything like this in the darn first place.

 

[Irks]

My 2 cents is this...
Would you really want your next door neighbor breeding these spiders?

 

[PaMBiX]

Unfortunately the world is full of fools. Not to give ideas but what if someone decide to put one ina packet and send it to someone , that someone opens the package , get bitten and die?
What if thanks to your stupidity the spider get loose and I get bitten?

This is not only "your bussines". Not at all.

Its people like that the ones responsable to all the banns. Stupid people whi never should owe anything like this in the darn first place.

well you are definately right about the world being full of fools. and i don't mean to offend you. But there are alot of things that could be mailed to someone with the same outcome , not to mention the likelyhood of a spider loose in a packet surviving the trip. the fact is, everyone probably lives next to someone, with something potentially dangerous in their house, creatures or not. what if thanks to someones stupidity they left their stove on and left town and caused a huge fire which included my house? does that mean no one should own a stove? no! it just means i was unlucky enough to live next to a moron. i know it's a stretch to compare the two, but really, it's the same idea. with the overwhelming statistics of accidents involving stupid people owning guns, knives, cars ect. , the least of anyones worries should be if someone wants to buy a spider with a 1% kill rate, assuming you ever encounter it (and manage to get bitten) in the first place. at least the people selling the spiders are attempting to screen who buys them.


and yes irks, i would love if my neighbor bred these.

 

[syndicate]

Oh man I started some drama on here :X
I really just wanted to know what species they were and thought it was important if they are in fact publicly available that people know exactly what species there getting!Whether or not I feel like certain people should keep these is out of my hands..
I will also comment on this:

well i thought i would just have to say something
people need to just keep there opinions to there self sometimes

Welcome to the internet!This is a public forum and people are more than welcome to express there opinions on this matter or any other ;]

Again this thread wasn't created to start a bunch of crap with Ken or anyone else who has these..Hope I didn't piss anyone off in creating it!
I personally think the Phoneutrua species are beautiful and fascinating spiders but due to there venom I will prob never keep any (even if I'd really like to hehe!)
So anyone reading this who does get some please read this and be super careful!
http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?t=83797
Thanks,
-Chris

 

[Richard McJimsey]

Isn't there laws in some states (ie Florida) that prohibit keeping Phoneutria and other species with similar consequences?

 

[Bigboy]

I would like to say that I did not brown box this in nor would I. I have only sold some of these to venom shops, museums and zoos so far and if a hobbyist was actually going to buy one I would make sure they were responsibly and understood what they paid for. Not one hobbyist has purchased any of these babies. The babies are easy to track and I don't want someone to ever be harmed by these cause that is a huge issue for me. Now if someone wants to question me please do so in a private message no reason to go public for people to start speculating about it when they don't have all the info and could ask me. It has been ID'ed as boliviensis I did not post that and was telling the places that purchased it this. I did not want to post that incase it was incorrect as I don't want to give out wrong info and get peoples hopes up wrongly but was telling the institutions that purchased them some far that info.

These were not "brown boxed" in to the county I know that for a fact. Not everything "rare" and unique comes underground.

No worries Ken, I think a certain importer is just grumpy that he was not in the loop for that shipment.

 

[KenTheBugGuy]

Florida

Florida has laws against tons of species including many scorpions and spiders.

Now as to the debate as I said before I am not handing these out to everyone. There are some people I know and trust as responsible hobbyist to have these and the rest are going to institutions. Someone mentioned my ad did not really say that and well they are right it did not but as one guy chimed in on here before this thread was even started he emailed me and I could tell these were not for him by his questions and just let him know that. No one has to worry about these getting into wrong hands.

 

[Irks]

what if thanks to someones stupidity they left their stove on and left town and caused a huge fire which included my house? does that mean no one should own a stove? no! it just means i was unlucky enough to live next to a moron. i know it's a stretch to compare the two, but really, it's the same idea. with the overwhelming statistics of accidents involving stupid people owning guns, knives, cars ect.

A large fire is obvious and will be reported by someone and your house will be fine, even if you aren't home. Improper gun use carries stiff penalties. Same with cars. And both of those are registered in your name. Improper knife use in your own home will not bother your neighbor in the slightest. Do you think if one of these did escape and bit someone, the keeper would run down the local police station and turn himself in? They would be responsible for all the persons medical bills. It's relatively untraceable, which means there is not as much personal responsibility associated with this as other deadly hobbies or activities. If one escaped would you notify the authorities, the same way you would if your gun or car was stolen? Unlikely.

Most people who like spiders in Northern California would not think that a random wandering spider can carry a serious bite because we don't have those here. All we have are widows, and widows are in webs. In places where these are native, I'm sure the children are taught at an early age to have a healthy respect and fear of spiders, but as a kid I used to pick up spiders because I learned from my mom, a zoologist, there is no reason to fear the spiders around here, except for the aforementioned widows.


Ken, I believe you will be responsible and hope anyone else selling these will be as well.

 

[Fran]

well you are definately right about the world being full of fools. and i don't mean to offend you. But there are alot of things that could be mailed to someone with the same outcome , not to mention the likelyhood of a spider loose in a packet surviving the trip. the fact is, everyone probably lives next to someone, with something potentially dangerous in their house, creatures or not. what if thanks to someones stupidity they left their stove on and left town and caused a huge fire which included my house? does that mean no one should own a stove? no! it just means i was unlucky enough to live next to a moron. i know it's a stretch to compare the two, but really, it's the same idea. with the overwhelming statistics of accidents involving stupid people owning guns, knives, cars ect. , the least of anyones worries should be if someone wants to buy a spider with a 1% kill rate, assuming you ever encounter it (and manage to get bitten) in the first place. at least the people selling the spiders are attempting to screen who buys them.


and yes irks, i would love if my neighbor bred these.

That comparation has no sense.
For that matter, hey, there are bombs in the world, and people die because of them, so If I have my house full of them...Its ok, right?

I love spiders, I love the hobby. You better believe that if my neighbour bred those I would report him on the spot.

I trust myself, not the rest.
You should be free to do whatever you want---until you mess with the rights of the rest.

 

[PaMBiX]

yes yes fair enough. I did say comparing them was a stretch but you also said they could be mailed by means to hurt someone which made no sense either. needless to say, i do not breed or own any, nor will I until I have more experience under my belt (maybe with faster huntsmen like that linked thread mentioned) but when i do, i'll make sure i don't live next to you if that helps.
irks , deathstalkers could get loose without being reported as well and easily sting someone who doesn't know what they are, but no one freaks out about those being for sale. oh well, as it was pointed out, this was not even the point of the thread and they have not been sold to any hobbiest so i'll just agree to disagree at this point and move on.

 

[John Apple]

That comparation has no sense.
For that matter, hey, there are bombs in the world, and people die because of them, so If I have my house full of them...Its ok, right?

I love spiders, I love the hobby. You better believe that if my neighbour bred those I would report him on the spot.

I trust myself, not the rest.
You should be free to do whatever you want---until you mess with the rights of the rest.

Wow Fran
I tend to disagree with you a lot here man
analogies asside bro
We all love spiders
...but reporting your neighbor on the spot...man harsh...i would think that you being a responsible verter like I am sure we all are, would ask your neighbor to see the 'breeding operation' before making a hasty decision that could and very well might have aftershocks all in our hobby. And reporting him sight unseen would be messing with his or her rights...ya know feeling free to do what they want...while not messing with your rights.....man I thought I was done here:wall:

 

[elvasco]

Wow Fran
I tend to disagree with you a lot here man
analogies asside bro
We all love spiders
...but reporting your neighbor on the spot...man harsh...i would think that you being a responsible verter like I am sure we all are, would ask your neighbor to see the 'breeding operation' before making a hasty decision that could and very well might have aftershocks all in our hobby. And reporting him sight unseen would be messing with his or her rights...ya know feeling free to do what they want...while not messing with your rights.....man I thought I was done here:wall:

What rights? Funny I went to law school and I don't recall the mention of an unalienable right to breed extremely dangerous animals. Maybe it's one of the lost bill of rights.

 

[Fran]

Wow Fran
I tend to disagree with you a lot here man
analogies asside bro
We all love spiders
...but reporting your neighbor on the spot...man harsh...i would think that you being a responsible verter like I am sure we all are, would ask your neighbor to see the 'breeding operation' before making a hasty decision that could and very well might have aftershocks all in our hobby. And reporting him sight unseen would be messing with his or her rights...ya know feeling free to do what they want...while not messing with your rights.....man I thought I was done here:wall:

Hi John,
When should I report him, on my wifes funneral? After someones goes to the hospital?
Theres not an 100% guaranteed way to keep these spiders free of accidental scapes,mistakes...etc, so its irresponsable for the rest to own them just for the heck of it.IMO.

(I really like Ken the bug guy and I think is a respetable seller, this not only has to do with him ), but honestly once the spiders are in for sale,you cant truly control where do they end up.

 

[Fran]

Not to beat the dead horse but no one is safe from accidents.

I have been keeping T's for 14 years. I have never EVER had an scape.Ever.

I always double and triple check things, Im quite a perfectionist to the point of almost being obsessive.Well once I had 2 P Subfusca in the tanks, went to sleep, and at 3 AM when going to the bathroom I just thought of checking on them out of the blue and they werent there.

It took me 6 hours, SIX to find them. If one of those would have bitten my wife,I would feel like a total idiot and I probably wouldnt forgive myself for that, but at least my wife would have survive with no real problems to her life.

Accidents happens.
Nobody here would denny to sell one of those to Joe ,the member here on the boards. He has quite a lot of experience with spiders and theraphosids too, he has a huge collection and a great ammount of knowledge.
Well once he woke up with an OBT on his bed who just bitte him. In the middle of the night.

Accidents happens. Now switch the subfusca or the Murinus for a Phoneutria, and the outcome would have been QUITE different.

 

[KenTheBugGuy]

Hey

I understand the points here but as people have said nobody freaks out about other venemous animals that are deadly already being sold. As I said before there are many scorpions, and spiders and others. Now the only difference in this and a few of the scorpions is these might be faster. Is that the only reason people are argueing against it is cause its faster? or are you saying people should not be selling anything that is as deadly at all? Accidents can happen if its fast or super fast I don't see one being much worse than the other. There are species of scorpions that are just plain deadly that we sell....there are also many spiders that we sell that are almost as deadly and would kill many people if bit by them.

 

[Fran]

I understand the points here but as people have said nobody freaks out about other venemous animals that are deadly already being sold. As I said before there are many scorpions, and spiders and others. Now the only difference in this and a few of the scorpions is these might be faster. Is that the only reason people are argueing against it is cause its faster? or are you saying people should not be selling anything that is as deadly at all? Accidents can happen if its fast or super fast I don't see one being much worse than the other. There are species of scorpions that are just plain deadly that we sell....there are also many spiders that we sell that are almost as deadly and would kill many people if bit by them.

Thats true. Personally I dont aprove anything deadly being keep just for heck of it. Some are worse than others.

 

[KenTheBugGuy]

Oh man I started some drama on here :X
I really just wanted to know what species they were and thought it was important if they are in fact publicly available that people know exactly what species there getting!Whether or not I feel like certain people should keep these is out of my hands..

No worries I was not upset at any comments really except one on the whole thread. I think it is good to question adn discuss things and truthfully this thread made me think a little about how readily people sell all the venemous socrpions including myself. I will be sellign them still but don't be suprised if you don't get a couple extra questions from me in the future if I don't know you well