Regarding recent Phoneutria for sale in USA

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AzJohn

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I've acually seen Phoneutria for sale at a local pet store. It was a very good store and this spider some how came to their possesion. THwy kwpt it well behind the counter and basically hidden. The only reason I knew about it was that the manager of the reptile department offered it to me, knowing that I keep hot scorpions. Latter that summer she produced an eggsack and had severa babies. The babies were allowed to canabalize themselves untill they got to a more managable size. I don't know if they ever sold any.

The hole point I'm trying to make is that the pet store didn't tell most of it's customers that they even had this species. It was only offered to afew people. That was how they chose to be responsible. Now I think we can all agree that Ken has a good reputation and would do his best to ensure that this species doesn't end up in the hands of a child or childlike person.

JOhn
 

KenTheBugGuy

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probably

Probably right....posting on the board gets other people but I will not sell these to anyone I don't know or atleast I have talked to first and know they will be responsible. I really have only sold to institutions so far which I am sure will be responsible. I also had 1 person send me money for 1 and I am trying to get in contact with that person to find out a little more abotu them. So no worries everyone these will mainly be going to institutions, entimologist or people I know that are very responsible.
 

Scorpendra

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Ken, could you tell us a little more? For example, was it difficult getting them into containers?
 

barabootom

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I might as well chime in where I'm not wanted and give my opinion. With all the really cool spiders to get that aren't deadly, why sell something that is? One death and the negative press would turn most people against this hobby.
 

ftorres

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Hello All,
To those who are more savy about this genus.
What is the number of fatalities caused by this Genus in their country of Origin?
I am talking about cases where they could not make it to the hospitals or a clinic to get treatment?

Now, to our friend keepers in Europe, How many casualties had been recorded in Europe caused by this genus?

How often are these available for sale at big shows like the one in Germany or from other Big Dealers/Breeders?????

I think that before jumping into conclusions we should take all that info in consideration.

We will also need to see a study in this particular specie proven that its venom is so lethal.

The fact that it is fast,a great climber and capable of inflicting a nasty bite with unimaginable consecuenses makes it a no no specie to keep????

How about those of us who keep lethal scorpions and other fast and good climbing spiders also capable of inflicting bites or stings with unimaginable consecuenses. All it takes is a small accident that can also cause us unimaginable consecuenses.

Keeping an invert with poison or venon can also kill someone, all it takes is a small accident and/or an allergic reaction and someone could die.


So those responsible and old enough to keep this genus do it.

Quote from this page
http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-the-deadliest-spider-in-the-world.htm


"The Guinness Book of World Records considers the Brazilian wandering spider to be the world’s deadliest spider. This is based on the spider’s venom being able to kill a certain number of mice. For a human, a bite from a Brazilian spider, or any spider for that matter, is not likely to kill instantly. Only 7% of the cases of bites from the Brazilian Wandering Spider require antivenin. Additionally, of 7000 reported bites from the Brazilian wandering spider, only a few deaths have been recorded, less than 1% of those bitten. "

quote
"What remains constant in all definitions of the world’s deadliest spider is that all spiders pose very little threat to humans. Among the vast number of spider species, very few are potentially harmful. No human is the natural prey of any spider, and bites are usually the result of an accidental meeting with a spider rather than the natural aggression of the spider. For the most part, even the deadliest spider, whichever receives the designation, remains a helpful rather than harmful part of the human environment. On the other hand, for an insect or small rodent, the designation of deadliest spider is worth noting."




So these is from a true Brazilian Wondering Spider, can anyone show something like this for the Peruvian specie?????

Something to think bout people.
 
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AzJohn

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I might as well chime in where I'm not wanted and give my opinion. With all the really cool spiders to get that aren't deadly, why sell something that is? One death and the negative press would turn most people against this hobby.
Isn't that the same reasoning that people have been using to try and ban tarantulas and other exotic pets. Why would you want a tarantula, scorpion, large snake ect.... When you could get a hamster.

Education is very important when it comes to dealing with this species. I think we are jumping to conclusions and not focusing on what facts are available. This species should not be made available to minors. Keepers should be responcible enough to take precautions when and where they are needed. But the fact remains that you are more likely to be killed by a car crash than by your spiders bite. Like fransico said less than 1% of this spiders bite are fatal and less than 10% require antivenom. Those numbers are about what you find in the really hot scorpions. Personally i would consider this species if they were larger. From what I've read this species is difficult to get to adulthood.


JOhn
 

John Apple

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Man this debate seems pointless
How many sicarius do we see for sale here [reputedly the worst]
How many widows have been sold here...hell damn near all of them:rolleyes:
How many loxoceles [leata anyone] have been sold here
How many andros are for sale here
How many deathstalkers have been sold
How many Arizona barks have been up for sale
How many incidents have happened here from any of these as pets that were 'life' and I say life threatening, doesn't sound like a bunch of irresponsible folk to me...but quite a few in the 'know';)
so why would anyone bitch and moan about phoneutria for sale here, when there are way worse things in my opinion for sale here...I for one am glad to see these spiders
 

ftorres

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thank you

AzJohn

John Apple

Now lets go buy some Phoneutria
 

What

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Man this debate seems pointless
1) How many sicarius do we see for sale here [reputedly the worst]
2) How many widows have been sold here...hell damn near all of them:rolleyes:
3) How many loxoceles [leata anyone] have been sold here
4) How many andros are for sale here
5) How many deathstalkers have been sold
6) How many Arizona barks have been up for sale
7) How many incidents have happened here from any of these as pets that were 'life' and I say life threatening, doesn't sound like a bunch of irresponsible folk to me...but quite a few in the 'know';)
so why would anyone bitch and moan about phoneutria for sale here, when there are way worse things in my opinion for sale here...I for one am glad to see these spiders
1) None since that import, and Sicarius cannot climb glass nor can they be considered anything close to aggressive, which imo Phoneutria *are*.
2) A lot, but really, widows are *not* dangerous unless you dont know they are there(benches and such) or are an idiot. With Phoneutria, you can be a very good keeper, and simply make one mistake that results in the spider getting out(think huntsman on speed + venom). Not to mention that even if an entire sac of latros was released into the wild, the species wouldnt establish, they would be out competed by the native species and/or geometricus.
3) Loxosceles again, are not really dangerous unless you are an idiot. They also have been shown *not* to expand their range as an introduced species, we dont know what Phoneturia might do if they escaped in Southern California or Florida or southern Tx, and I dont want to find out.
4, 5, & 6) Tons, I am sure, but scorpions and spiders are vastly different. Scorpions have, afaik, broods around 30 scorplings in most species, Phoneutria have what? 300 slings in one sac? I dont see the point of this comparison at all...
7) I know of at least a few invert related hospitalizations... In fact I *witnessed* one. All it takes is an accident.

So... What exactly is worse than these and being sold right now?
 

Fran

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In my opinion a simple hobbiest just for the heck of it, and on top of that , that it has a familly and doesnt live alone shouldnt have these species. Period. Thats such an irresponsable thing to do, stupid and irresponsable.

Mistakes and accidents happens, and can happen. Is not the same to have a Parahybana on the loose than a Phoneutria.
 

ftorres

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1) So... What exactly is worse than these and being sold right now?
Politicians trying to make it more dificult and almost imposible for me to keep some exotic amphibians,turtles,tortoises and Beaded Lizards

that is what is worse right now

regards

francisco
 

What

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Politicians trying to make it more dificult and almost imposible for me to keep some exotic amphibians,turtles,tortoises and Beaded Lizards

that is what is worse right now

regards

francisco
Having these for sale isnt going to make that any easier... And, imo, will probably make that very thing *harder*... but yes, lets go get some of them to keep in our homes. :?
 

Fran

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Having these for sale isnt going to make that any easier... And, imo, will probably make that very thing *harder*... but yes, lets go get some of them to keep in our homes. :?
You are right.
Then you come back home one day and the spider, for whatever reason scaped,because its possible and because accidents happen, and bites your son or your wife and all the cool and badass fun goes away in a second.
 
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AzJohn

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In my opinion a simple hobbiest just for the heck of it, and on top of that , that it has a familly and doesnt live alone shouldnt have these species. Period. Thats such an irresponsable thing to do, stupid and irresponsable.

Mistakes and accidents happens, and can happen. Is not the same to have a Parahybana on the loose than a Phoneutria.
What about Poecilotheria. I've seen bite reports that had a grown man going to the hospital. What would that do to a child? The bottom line is that as keepers we bare responcibility for our animals. If you can't keep Phoneutria, you shouldn't try. But that argument also goes for pokies and a few other tarantul species. Personally I've kept several hot species for years now. If I start a family I'd consider what that means to me as a keeper. I've never been bitten or stung. Simple precations are what is needed. A lock on the door goes a long way. Education goes longer.


JOhn
 

sharpfang

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There hasn't been a W.Coast vs. E.Coast rivalry, since...Tupac & Biggy

I might as well chime in where I'm not wanted and give my opinion. With all the really cool spiders to get that aren't deadly, why sell something that is? One death and the negative press would turn most people against this hobby.
A fair point 2 make......But, if someone is responsible enough, arguably "crazy" enough, they should be able 2 keep in their home, right ?
On selling: Let's ALL give Ken & Todd both, a little credit here AB members.
Why do you think that your Opinion, is Not wanted Tom ? I 4 one, respect it.

I'm sure others besides myself have seen various spiders come in on banana shipments in the past. Aren't these one of those species that comes in on occasion?
I once saw one in a distribution facility - Can't confirm Sp. But was creepy!
How bout' them Apples - I mean Bananas :cool:

I think that before jumping into conclusions we should take all that info in consideration.
We will also need to see a study in this particular specie proven that its venom is so lethal.
The fact that it is fast,a great climber and capable of inflicting a nasty bite with unimaginable consecuenses makes it a no no specie to keep????
Something to think bout people.
For some Torres, it should B a No-No......Yes-Yes

Man this debate seems pointless
How many Arizona barks have been up for sale
Of ALL the "debates" that I've seen on AB John.......This one is an important one I "feel", atleast 2 me. Also John......Are Az. Barks, that potent....? How much so ? I have ALOT of research 2 do on scorps, obviously.

In my opinion a simple hobbiest just for the heck of it, and on top of that , that it has a familly and doesnt live alone shouldnt have these species. Period. Thats such an irresponsable thing to do, stupid and irresponsable.
Mistakes and accidents happens, and can happen. Is not the same to have a Parahybana on the loose than a Phoneutria.
I Agree. Other dynamics of this spider are being debated as well though. Like, should responsible sellers & keepers, Sell -or- Have them. And legalities of Imports.{Come in the Country, weather we like it or Not - Thanx Chiquita!}:D What do you think bout those aspects ?
 

burmish101

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If you wanted to know whats "worse" than Phoneutria:

There were c.b. inland taipans sold online to private keepers(reverse trio) a few weeks ago.

You dont see these types of arguments on hot snake forums. If people are responsible they will be fine.

If you've only ever owned a copperhead would you buy a taipan? I dont think so. I believe this fits into what is being discussed here, and shouldnt need explanation to the forum police lol.

If people use basic logic they will make the right decision for themselves and the animal. I feel some are way too paranoid but I can see their points.

With all the accidental imports of Phoneutria in banana shipments how many are established in Florida?

IMO the best thing to do is just educate people and not bash the ones that have went through the work to get where they're at now. Seems some are arguing just for the sake of arguing.
 

elvasco

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Absolutely ridiculous

Hi All,

First let me tell you all this is my first and probably last post. I am going to come out swinging and I'm frankly unconcerned if you're offended. I am not an exotic animal keeper. I don't own a single spider. Not even a tarantula. I am however rather learned on the subject and familiar with many types of studies and commentary on spiders. It's weird, but spiders are somewhat my hobby and I don't think the fact I don't own any discounts my input completely.

I cannot express how bad of an idea I think this is to sell phoneutria in this country and particularly keeping them here in NorCal where I live. I came across Ken's website and saw he was selling these. I've never met Ken, I've never even heard of him before, but this peaked my interest so I wrote him an email. I asked him if it was legal to own them etc etc and to his credit he told me I probably shouldn't buy one, albeit in a very short response. I then came across this post and found it quite a coincidence. I'm shocked and bothered these are for sale. Now Ken you mentioned that you don't just sell these to anyone;

1.) You had them for sale clear and plain on your website and I was able to see them for sell by a simple google search (I heard these were being sold and couldn't believe it so I googled the term and that's how the whole thing got started). Now I'm not a spider breeder, seller or collector but I am a businessman and marketing is marketing... Didn't seem to me like you were targeting a small audience or targeting museums...

2.) $30??? Really? For the most venomous spider in the world? Maybe "gun hobbyists" should start selling ak47s for $50. Don't worry, the guy who sells them has many guns and won't just sell them to just anyone. Sounds like the're a good price for even the most modest hobbyist to make the purchase.

I hope to god legislation is passed on this and luckily I am politically involved locally and I will be pushing for this to be shut down. I doubt I will be listened to, but be damn sured I will try. I'd also like to contend to a few of the replies here.

1.) To the person who said you are more likely to be killed in a car crash than be bitten by a phoneutria. This is because there are quite a bit more cars than phoneutria wouldn't you say (here in America)? The fact you said this in an attempt to make a logical argument, makes me not only concerned for you owning spiders, but even cats. If there were millions of phoneutria in the US, like cars, I'm guessing bites would be much more common.

2.) To the person who said that phoneutria can't establish themselves here and cites their lack of existence in Florida from "stowaways" as evidence: I hope you're joking. One spider that was amazingly lucky enough to survive that journey probably doesn't have the strength to bear slings. While again not a spider collector, I have lived in South America (Chile and Argentina) and I will tell you this: phoneutria is NOT native to Chile (it is to northern Argentina) but I know they have now been found wild in the local environment after being introduced by Brazilians (I have heard they've found them in Uruguay as well). While Chile is a long country with many types of climatw, a good part of it, where phoneutria is found, is EXACTLY like California (and not just southern - hence the common characteristics of wine from California and wine from Chile). It is very possible that a few out of 300 get loose and have not been subjected to a brutal journey on bananas that they could indeed survive right here in California.

I cannot even IMAGINE what the true insurance cost to you "breeders" would be if companies had any idea the danger of the commodities you carry.

Finally, I noticed Ken pulled these off his website today. Probably a good call. I again find it funny it was on there to begin with if it was only intended to very specific hobbyists and zoos. I'm not concerned with your ability as a spider keeper, but it seems everyone agreed accidents happen and I am concerned with your physical ability to track and catch an extraordinarily fast spider. Sigfried and Roy were extremely talented tiger keepers; that seemed to have worked at well for them. I guess it's a good thing they weren't selling white tigers.
 

What

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What about Poecilotheria.
Pokies, while capable of moving at high speeds, are *very* easy to work with, in my experience. More-so even than Psalmopoeus(who, as slings, almost always dart and jump)...

Anyways... the issue is venom, yes, pokies have *very* strong venom for a T, but they dont even come close in toxicity to Latrodectus... And really, most people agree that Poecilotheria should not be kept within easy access of anyone that doesnt know spiders. The same, and more precautions should be taken with these spiders.
If you wanted to know whats "worse" than Phoneutria:

There were c.b. inland taipans sold online to private keepers(reverse trio) a few weeks ago.

You dont see these types of arguments on hot snake forums. If people are responsible they will be fine.
Woah... wait... you are now comparing venomous snakes(which in a fair number of states you have to be trained and licensed to own) to spiders which currently have no restrictions at all on ownership in any state(other than outright bans in a few counties + Iowa?)...

With hot snakes, you have good caging options that have easy ways to lock them, you can use hooks, gloves, tubes, tongs, and other tools to work the animals. They cannot climb straight up a smooth sided trash can(assuming the snake's length does not allow it), they cannot jump, in most cases you can see an obvious change in behavior before they attempt to bite(hissing/flaring/posture/etc)...

Phoneutria cannot be moved with a hook, handled with gloves, manipulated in a tube, or picked up with tongs. Phoneutria *can* climb these surfaces, they *can* jump, and there is no obvious change in behavior before they bite(that I know of).

As for them coming in on food shipments, how many of those were mated specifically in an attempt to breed them? How many were probably smashed on sight rather than looked for with care? Honestly...for all *we* know there may be a small population of them somewhere in Florida already and people simply have not encountered them...

(For the record... I think the post above me is a bit over the top... but their second "2)" makes my point above pretty well too.)
 

barabootom

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What is the number of fatalities caused by this Genus in their country of Origin?
I think the answer is...unknown, but deaths have occurred.

Now, to our friend keepers in Europe, How many casualties had been recorded in Europe caused by this genus?
How many keepers are there outside of scientific institutions? I would think the number of keepers of phoneutria is low and the length of time these have been available in the pet trade is short. I don't think the stats you're suggesting have any validity.

How often are these available for sale at big shows like the one in Germany or from other Big Dealers/Breeders?????
Who cares? If you're implying that deaths haven't occurred YET, well, that's good for the Germans.

We will also need to see a study in this particular specie proven that its venom is so lethal.
I agree. but since they are generally accepted to be deadly, let's see the study showing they are not deadly before we start selling them everywhere.

"
The Guinness Book of World Records considers the Brazilian wandering spider to be the world’s deadliest spider. This is based on the spider’s venom being able to kill a certain number of mice. For a human, a bite from a Brazilian spider, or any spider for that matter, is not likely to kill instantly. Only 7% of the cases of bites from the Brazilian Wandering Spider require antivenin. Additionally, of 7000 reported bites from the Brazilian wandering spider, only a few deaths have been recorded, less than 1% of those bitten. "

quote
"What remains constant in all definitions of the world’s deadliest spider is that all spiders pose very little threat to humans. Among the vast number of spider species, very few are potentially harmful. No human is the natural prey of any spider, and bites are usually the result of an accidental meeting with a spider rather than the natural aggression of the spider. For the most part, even the deadliest spider, whichever receives the designation, remains a helpful rather than harmful part of the human environment. On the other hand, for an insect or small rodent, the designation of deadliest spider is worth noting."
I have seen phoneutria in Brazil and Peru and I have travelled and lived in very rural areas of a number of countries. I can almost guarantee, that bites (and deaths) in rural areas are under-reported. I think the stats, even in the Guinness Book of World Records, are questionable. I have never seen phoneutria during the day, but always in the middle of the night on the forest floor. There aren't many humans on the forest floor in the middle of the night. The mere fact that deaths have occurred, in my opinion, warrants further study before putting phoneutria in the pet trade.

I keep hearing the argument that they come in anyways in banana shipments. I can't find any stats, but I think that it's very rare, and most people encountering any spider will quickly kill it. Having a few come in accidentally and probably quickly being destroyed, is a lot different than hatching 500 from an egg sac and shipping them all over the country. Selling phoneutria hurts this hobby and increases people's fear of spiders in general.
Isn't that the same reasoning that people have been using to try and ban tarantulas and other exotic pets. Why would you want a tarantula, scorpion, large snake ect.... When you could get a hamster. JOhn
Well, the tarantulas and scorpions I keep can't kill me, nor the snakes I have kept in the past. Most species are easy to keep contained and if they get loose they are easy to find. Baby phoneutria just don't compare. And I have kept hamsters.
 

John Apple

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Guys it's all about how responsible you are ....
Threads like this also bring in the federallies looking ever harder in our hobby...next thing ya know is that non native tarantulas will be outlawed because they can survive here.....did ya know it snows in chile.?....now starts the fecund rose hair invasiion above the Ohio river:D
Man it is a good thing that phonutria don't spray venom like some scorpions people keep...:cool:
I will post no more on this subject
apples and oranges:?
 
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