Regarding recent Phoneutria for sale in USA

[cacoseraph]

lol@todd with the ad hominem ftw



i think debating the deadliness is silly. some species have a small chance to kill the young, old, and weak. it is a relatively tiny chance, but bigger than the chance for ANY tarantula. and greater than zero is, well, greater than zero

that is not the issue i am concerned with, though

i am reading the v42n1a03.pdf paper linked earlier. yes, it definitely supports a low reported mortality from phoneutriaism.... but i think some of you missed the actual importance of that paper!


i don't think anybody who is smart and has done their reading really is saying these spiders are going to kill a big healthy man with access to modern medical support from a single bite... even 1 time in 10,000

but read that pdf and ask yourself if you *really* want to see a kid on a ventilator being treated for several different heart symptoms? things that can mangle the body and mind of a child.

and 98+% of those bit REPORTED AT LEAST "MILD" SYMPTOMS that include "pain and other local manifestations eventually associated with tachycardia and restlessness". tachycardia + preexisting heart condition = trip to hospital, no matter what. in that i mean, if someone KNOWS they have a pre-heart-cond and they get bit they need to get themselves to the hospital for monitoring. also, 8% had moderate symptoms...

that is so not like tarantulas as to boggle my freakin mind. even Poeci have a smaller than 98% symptom report. come on now. stop the ludicrous comparisons.

p.s. that v42n1a03.pdf paper only reports on ~420 bite reports. no one died afai can tell but four ppl did suffer moderate to severe cyanosis. that is a potential mangler without treatment for sure! and 1% suffered from that symptom











and liability is a HUGE issue with these spiders! i've asked before and got zero response... has ANYONE looked up what the actual liability is? oh, and almost certainly it is going to differ by state and local level, too.













as for the hobby being self regulating... ha! stupid ppl are never good at telling they are stupid. that's... kinda part of what makes them stupid, in fact

 

[What]

I just would like to interject that *anyone* who is actually for regulating our hobby needs to take a step back and take a look around. I am just as against having these available like they were(no offense Ken, I do think it was an honest mistake...just lets not have it happen again lest this happen again ) as the most outspoken people here are, but come on guys...

I will be totally honest and say that Ricky keeping these concerned me, I made no secret of that, the way he handled the criticism brought even more doubts to the surface, even if his ability to handle touchy subjects is inversely related to his invert keeping ability... I even would have serious problems with cacoseraph or buthus keeping these spiders(not that either of them actually would) and they are friends of mine. I can think of three or four people that *I* would feel ok knowing they had them and that is about it. I know I could safely keep them but I am definitely not on that list...

These spiders are more than a personal choice. Keeping them involves every other person in your household. If you have common ventilation with *anyone* it involves them as well(as do many other things people dont think about). Mistakes happen...but when you are keeping something like this, you cannot make one; if someone is bitten by your spider after it escapes you are liable just as you would be for your dog. I dont say this to try and scare people but simply to make sure that everyone who has even the smallest inkling of wanting to keep one understands the commitment involved with safely keeping any invert that has the potential, even in the slightest, to kill. I would personally like to see the keeping of these kept to universities and places that are either educating(and have qualified staff) or researching. They have insurance up the wazoo and have the facilities to make sure that even the smallest slings cannot escape(at UCR they are...compelled, by the USDA/Aphis, to keep even their L. reclusa in that kind of building). Honestly...you would be amazed at how many professional entomologists/arachnologists do not even know that spiders are being imported for people to keep as pets, and the ones that do are surprised and worried about what might be brought in at what cost to the native habitats.

Something the US hobby *really* should do is engage a significant portion of the professionals in our hobby. Send vouchers from imports out for IDs in settings where that is a common practice. Get accurate keys made for people to (double) check the IDs at home. Use the species the hobby is bringing in to further research. All of that and more. Our goal as a hobby should be to further our knowledge and regulate ourselves in a fashion that does not involve flame wars, vendor disputes, accusations, and just general irresponsibility.

We should strive to grow as a hobby and community, but to do so responsibly while pushing away or setting straight those that would post fake bite reports, cover cages with saran wrap, or take criticism in a way other than as a learning experience*. I will say it again this hobby should not be a free for all, a warzone, or a place where incivility rules(like this thread).

Anyway...if anyone wants more clarification(cant think of who would), please PM me. For now...I am going to wash my hands of this thread. I knew it was going to be bad, but not this bad...

* - Not meant as an insult to the parties involved in those incidents...well...ok, the first one is...but the second two arent meant that way at all, they are simply the incidents on the forefront of my brain at the moment and any behavior along those lines is to be discouraged.

 

[barabootom]

If we choose government regulation, we are giving up the majority of this hobby. Suddenly, half the species we can currently have will disappear because those making the regulations won't be hobbiests and won't care about anyone's passion for arachnids. One rule today, ten tomorrow, 100 rules next month. Facts won't necessarily matter. Every State will have different rules and different penalties. Most likely some states will ban arachnids completely. Dealers won't want to, or will be unable, to wade through a mass of regulation and will see there markets shrink. Once the ball gets rolling and the press jumps on the regulate arachnid bandwagon, people will want to pass unnecessary and unwarranted rules to ban arachnids, just becuase they don't see the reason for anyone to want to keep them. Can 30,000 arachnid keepers prevent 300,000,000 people from making laws that overly restrict this hobby? Am I exaggerating? I doubt it. If we would regulate ourselves and simply say no to species like phoneutria, we would be doing ourselves a huge favor.

 

[Ammo87]

Again we dont want any of your stupid ass regulation by our government, we dont regulate other venomous creatures we have and keep, you all are over reacting and want to have uncle sams pacifier in your mouth. I say any one who want regulation, will totally screw this hobby up for everyone. The guy who want to draft crap up for what, for regulation, you have problems and should probably give me all you dangerious spiders and go run for office !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You cant screw that up because its already screwed up. Ken what the heck, you are the biggest dealer in the US now, this would ruin you and if you would support all this crap, I will laugh when your business is regulated into the ground !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Try to mess with my hobby, anyone that supports this thread should probably give up your spiders and get poddles and prance them around on pink leashes !!!! The people that want to regulate dont even belong, near these boards !!!!!! If I owned these board all this talk would be deleted before someone gets a bright idea !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[cacoseraph]

you know, threads like this are always good for populating my ignore list

 

[Galapoheros]

lol this thread has worn out my brain cell just reading part of it, I picked a bad night to stop doing crack.

 

[Widowman10]

i like to let my poddle prance around

get poddles and prance them around on pink leashes !!!!

 

[buthus]

i like to let my poddle prance around

Thats what ive heard about you. :5:

I picked a bad night to stop doing crack

Ill never stop doing crack...when im clean, I just dont have the balls to deal with my scariest spiders.


I want a prancing Phoneutria...i'd dye her pink.




Interesting to observe the "hobby" dealing with this issue. A very useful, yet useless thread.

 

[NevularScorpion]

I hope to god legislation is passed on this and luckily I am politically involved locally and I will be pushing for this to be shut down.

Before you shut down the whole hobby for a single sp. of spider and waste the money of the citezens. worry more on bigger issues, like budget cuts for education and other economic crisis. We need more funding for education and giving people jobs here in the US. There are a lot of people going bankrupt and losing their houses, so before you complain how the government should banned invert hobby focus first on solving our economy. banning invert hobby will not just hurt the people in the hobby but also people who needs financial help from the government. we don't need another useless proposition that will waste the tax payer's money because we (invert Hobbyist) can solve our own problem by talking to one another and making a decision to accept it or not (we have more knowledge and exp when it comes to invert compare to the general public which is why we can make better desicions than other people when it comes to this topic).... most hobbyist like me cares about the hobby, keeping invert is our passion and we will do all we can to protect it.


In my opinion people should have the right to own this spider. people who are responsible, have the knowledge to care for them and can provide a safe facility for them should be given a chance to keep them. Instead of excluding them in the hobby, people should just create a permit, for them to own. A permit that has some requirment in order for this species to be keep. example, an escape proof room, handling equipments, years of experience, and recomendation from spider experts.


I will not keep this spider no matter how beautiful and facinating they are because they are too difficult and dangerous to work with. however there are some people who have the capability to keep this wonderful spiders safely, and i don't want them to lose their right to keep them just because the spiders are not suitable for most people.


That is my bottom line!! I already said what i have to say and I will not respond to this thread anymore and argue with other people.

 

[Venom]

Short post

Fran is wrong.

Pho's are fine.

;P;P;P


I didn't have time to write anything more intelligent.

 

[Mad Hatter]

If we tarantula and arachnid hobbiests, don't want regulation to limit non dangerous species, and we fear having our collections limited and banned, then we need to use a little common sense. When dealers advertise "the most venomous spider in the world for $30", we are inviting criticism and regulation. If we avoid just a few species, we can proudly say we have a harmless hobby. (Never a single death, dog owners can't say that.) The knowlege level in the hobby is night and day. Some hobbiests are walking encyclopedias, and others are extremely misinformed. I'd like to know what dealer feels qualified to decide who should have phoneutria and who shouldn't? A couple of smart answers to a couple of questions and wah-lah!! You can be the proud owner of a phoneutria. If we really want to protect this hobby, don't argue in favor of phoneutria. The general public would never understand. Phoneutria have caused deaths. DEATHS. Yes, other species have to. Yadda yadda yadda. Yes, the risk might be a little overstated, but there are still confirmed deaths. Why not just choose one of the other 100,000 species that don't draw attention to us? You people that insist we have the RIGHT to own phoneutria are destroying your own hobby. just wait until one of those extremely misinformed hobbiest gets a phoneutria and dies. Just wait for that backlash. I'm sure when that happens you'll cry in your soup and say it's not fair because you were the chosen one to keep phoneutria, the experienced hobbiest, not the other fool.

Also, everyone seems to want to compare phoneutria to pokies. I have a good friend who was bit by an adult regalis. He was fine in a few days with no lasting effects whatsoever. I don't believe the same could be said about phoneutria. I've bred a bunch of regalis in the past. They are quite easy to manage. I deli cup fed hundreds until they were nearly two inches and never had a problem. They just don't compare to phoneutria in any way.

Here's an interesting link. It indicates the venom of phoneutria didn't kill the majority of those bitten. But in Brazil they felt the need to use antivenom in some cases and confirmed a death in this study. Protect the hobby, keep phoneutria out of the hobby.

http://www.scielo.br/scielo.php?pid=S0036-46652000000100003&script=sci_arttext&tlng=en

x2 to all points made.

Is it really fair to jeopardize the entire hobby for a few people who want to keep this spider? I don't care if you are qualified to keep it or not. If there is an accident, you can be sure outside influences will be interfering with our hobby.

Selfishly speaking, it isn't right and it disgusts me to think that a possible consequence of this could mean endangerment to the hobby I have loved for 6 years.

Selflessly speaking:

read that pdf and ask yourself if you *really* want to see a kid on a ventilator being treated for several different heart symptoms? things that can mangle the body and mind of a child.

as far as i can tell, the ONLY thing that makes pho unique is their venom. every other characteristic can be found in another spider. hell, there are other ctenids that have every characteristic EXCEPT the venom.... so really... what exactly are ppl looking for when they want to get a pho?


they want THE MOST DEADLY venom they can get their hands on. *that* is a horrible motivation

As for educating people about this species properly... how many people do not read simple care sheets or G. rosea stickies or even research what they are buying ahead of time? Letting our hobby's reputation rest in the care of keepers like that is inviting disaster.

But how can a dealer decide who can and cannot keep this species? They can't. And once this species becomes more commonly available, there will be more potential for an accident.

People are scared of spiders.

All it takes is an incident with this one species for people to question this entire hobby of ours.

My worry is that IF Phoneutria ever becomes an issue, it will make the Pit Bull debate look like child's play.

Since I realize they are already available, all I can do is be disgusted and hope that I am wrong about impending disaster.

I just would like to interject that *anyone* who is actually for regulating our hobby needs to take a step back and take a look around. I am just as against having these available like they were(no offense Ken, I do think it was an honest mistake...just lets not have it happen again lest this happen again ) as the most outspoken people here are, but come on guys...

I will be totally honest and say that Ricky keeping these concerned me, I made no secret of that, the way he handled the criticism brought even more doubts to the surface, even if his ability to handle touchy subjects is inversely related to his invert keeping ability... I even would have serious problems with cacoseraph or buthus keeping these spiders(not that either of them actually would) and they are friends of mine. I can think of three or four people that *I* would feel ok knowing they had them and that is about it. I know I could safely keep them but I am definitely not on that list...

These spiders are more than a personal choice. Keeping them involves every other person in your household. If you have common ventilation with *anyone* it involves them as well(as do many other things people dont think about). Mistakes happen...but when you are keeping something like this, you cannot make one; if someone is bitten by your spider after it escapes you are liable just as you would be for your dog. I dont say this to try and scare people but simply to make sure that everyone who has even the smallest inkling of wanting to keep one understands the commitment involved with safely keeping any invert that has the potential, even in the slightest, to kill. I would personally like to see the keeping of these kept to universities and places that are either educating(and have qualified staff) or researching. They have insurance up the wazoo and have the facilities to make sure that even the smallest slings cannot escape(at UCR they are...compelled, by the USDA/Aphis, to keep even their L. reclusa in that kind of building). Honestly...you would be amazed at how many professional entomologists/arachnologists do not even know that spiders are being imported for people to keep as pets, and the ones that do are surprised and worried about what might be brought in at what cost to the native habitats.

Something the US hobby *really* should do is engage a significant portion of the professionals in our hobby. Send vouchers from imports out for IDs in settings where that is a common practice. Get accurate keys made for people to (double) check the IDs at home. Use the species the hobby is bringing in to further research. All of that and more. Our goal as a hobby should be to further our knowledge and regulate ourselves in a fashion that does not involve flame wars, vendor disputes, accusations, and just general irresponsibility.

 

[Chaika]

For all those people that keep talking about the availability of Phoneutria and other 'hot stuff' in Europe. I would just like to mention that in the UK they are one of the species the keeping of which is controlled by the Dangerous Wild Animals Act, along with the Sydney funnel-web spider (genus Atrax), Brown recluse spiders (genus Loxosceles) and the Black Widows (genus Latrodectus). Also controlled is the keeping of ALL Buthid scorpions. So we are not as unregulated as you might think. I don't know what it is like it all other European countries but I have heard both about more relaxed and more strict measures.

To get a DWA license to keep these animals you need to fulfill several conditions regarding the security of the enclosure and control procedures. The licence itself costs money and you must have all the relevant insurance. People, of course, can keep these illegally but if you are a seller, I believe that you are obliged to check that the person buying is actually in possession of a DWA licence for that species.

And its not the end of the world, or the hobby. After all, if you are really serious about wanting to keep these species then getting a licence should not bother you, if you're not serious enough to get a licence then you probably shouldn't keep these species in the first place.

Some info on how DWA works: http://www.defra.gov.uk/wildlife-pets/wildlife/protect/dwaa/about.htm

Just thought I'd point that out.

 

[Fran]

For all those people that keep talking about the availability of Phoneutria and other 'hot stuff' in Europe. I would just like to mention that in the UK they are one of the species the keeping of which is controlled by the Dangerous Wild Animals Act, along with the Sydney funnel-web spider (genus Atrax), Brown recluse spiders (genus Loxosceles) and the Black Widows (genus Latrodectus). Also controlled is the keeping of ALL Buthid scorpions. So we are not as unregulated as you might think. I don't know what it is like it all other European countries but I have heard both about more relaxed and more strict measures.

To get a DWA license to keep these animals you need to fulfill several conditions regarding the security of the enclosure and control procedures. The licence itself costs money and you must have all the relevant insurance. People, of course, can keep these illegally but if you are a seller, I believe that you are obliged to check that the person buying is actually in possession of a DWA licence for that species.

And its not the end of the world, or the hobby. After all, if you are really serious about wanting to keep these species then getting a licence should not bother you, if you're not serious enough to get a licence then you probably shouldn't keep these species in the first place.

Some info on how DWA works: http://www.defra.gov.uk/wildlife-pets/wildlife/protect/dwaa/about.htm

Just thought I'd point that out.

I totally agree. Im from Spain and you need permits to keep several species.
People tend to think is a free for all in Europe.

And I absolutely agree with Mad Hatter. Is nice to see some people still have common sense.

 

[burmish101]

x2 to all points made.

Is it really fair to jeopardize the entire hobby for a few people who want to keep this spider? I don't care if you are qualified to keep it or not. If there is an accident, you can be sure outside influences will be interfering with our hobby.

Nobody interfers with the dog hobby even though they kill people fairly often in the u.s. so why would they do anything different with spiders?

 

[barabootom]

Nobody interfers with the dog hobby even though they kill people fairly often in the u.s. so why would they do anything different with spiders?

The dog hobby has millions of members and the impression most people have of dogs is cute and cuddly. The arachnid hobby has far fewer members and most people have a fear of spiders. Also, most cities and towns require dog licenses and many prohibit large dogs or the keeping of more than two dogs per household.

 

[cacoseraph]

a much better comparison is the reptile hobby

and they have been on the edge of losing major pieces of their hobby since i have been into bugs... like 6 years or so

and the reptile hobby has probably along the lines of 10-50 members for every bug hobby person, i would think

 

[John Apple]

still the same ol arguments and the same results...really nothing but thump thump
so they are here and as Oscar said lets see some care posts and safety measures......really man

 

[Fran]

The dog hobby has millions of members and the impression most people have of dogs is cute and cuddly. The arachnid hobby has far fewer members and most people have a fear of spiders. Also, most cities and towns require dog licenses and many prohibit large dogs or the keeping of more than two dogs per household.

Exactly.

Besides, its absurd to compare spdiers with dogs.
Dogs are domesticated animals who have been living and serving purposes to the human being for many years. Spiders are wild animals.
Who not only dont need us but is still up to debate if they are ok in captivity./

 

[kripp_keeper]

Nobody interfers with the dog hobby even though they kill people fairly often in the u.s. so why would they do anything different with spiders?

Yes people do interfere. Dogs have to be put down all the time, and people are sued. While I don't agree that responsible people should not have what they can handle(regardless of potent venom). Would you really want our hobby to be like the "dog hobby"? Being limited to 2 spiders over 6 months of age? Them being seized because your neighbor was bite by a spider, and claims one of your must have gotten out? Honestly the dog bylaws here have gotten ridiculous. Recently they just doubled all the fines related to dog bylaws. It also cost 30 to register a dog, and 500 for a "vicious dog".

If they started a registration fee for tarantulas A lot of hobbyist would be in big trouble.

 

[Ammo87]

Wow

Hate to tell you this isnt europe !!!!!! Its the USA, we dont want to be Spain or what ever, go back there and buy all the permits you want.