Pure or not?

AmberDawnDays

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I've been reading a lot about the hybridization of tarantulas lately and I've seen B. Vagans come up quite frequently in these discussions. Many people have talked about how their gene pool has already been quite muddled up in the hobby.

I picked up 0.0.4 B. Vagans 1/4 - 1/2" at an expo and they were only $4 each. I am new to the hobby and don't know many names of people or whether they are trustworthy or not. How do I know if the B. Vagans I picked up are true or not? I didn't even write down the name of the guy I bought them from. However, this is a monthly expo, so I plan to attend in February and gather the info I need for my records.

So my question is, how does anyone, especially people new to the hobby, know whether they are buying what they think they are buying? How do we avoid buying hybrids? If we accidentally buy one, what can we do about it?

Below are some pics of them showing all 4 and a close up of 1 of them. Do they look like B. Vagans or are they too small to tell? Thanks. :)

Edit: At the same expo I also picked up a B. Vagans that is about 2.5" but I haven't measured it, so the size could be wrong (because it's my own estimation of size). I posted a pic below, but its not the best. This one stays burrowed all day and only comes out at night. Then it will scurry back away to its burrow at the slightest movement from me. I'm lucky to have the pic that I got.

Anyways it's rather brown and black verses having a red butt and black body. This is due to its size right?
 

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BobBarley

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Almost all (if not all) vagans in the hobby have been hybridized somewhere along the line. I'd be willing to bet that yours has too.

It's impossible to avoid buying hybrid vagans (unless you find a WC one, and that's pretty illegal).

Nothing can be done about it. Just breed vagans to vagans.
 

AmberDawnDays

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Almost all (if not all) vagans in the hobby have been hybridized somewhere along the line. I'd be willing to bet that yours has too.

It's impossible to avoid buying hybrid vagans
That seems so crazy to me that it's basically impossible to get any vagans that haven't been hybridized somewhere in the hobby.
 

BobBarley

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Well it is what it is, right? I just didn't know this before. I still would buy vagans though because my juvie vagans is quite a burrower and I find that very interesting.
Yes, vagans are very nice. Surprisingly, I haven't owned one yet.

It should be noted that hobby form B. albopilosum is in the same state. Very hybridized and inbred. In fact, albos and vagans have been knowingly and irresponsibly hybridized with each other a good deal. However, recently, WC imports of pure albos from Nicaragua have come into the hobby. You can really see the difference between WC stock and hobby stock.
 

AmberDawnDays

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Yes, vagans are very nice. Surprisingly, I haven't owned one yet.

It should be noted that hobby form B. albopilosum is in the same state. Very hybridized and inbred. In fact, albos and vagans have been knowingly and irresponsibly hybridized with each other a good deal. However, recently, WC imports of pure albos from Nicaragua have come into the hobby. You can really see the difference between WC stock and hobby stock.
Do you know of anyone selling any CB from WC? I'm actually quite interested in getting a B. Albopilosum. Definitely on my list of T's that I need.
 

Olan

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What would vagans be hybridized with? Albopilosum? Verdezi? Kahlenbergi? How do we know? Why aren't we concerned with B. smithi hybridization with B. auratum? As far as I can tell, there is just as much evidence for B. smithi hybridization as there is for vagans.
 

BobBarley

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What would vagans be hybridized with? Albopilosum? Verdezi? Kahlenbergi? How do we know? Why aren't we concerned with B. smithi hybridization with B. auratum? As far as I can tell, there is just as much evidence for B. smithi hybridization as there is for vagans.
Many adult vagans I see through pics and at shows are highly variable. I have also heard people intentionally breeding the two. I believe @Exoskeleton Invertebrates and @Philth knows more on the matter.
 

AmberDawnDays

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What would vagans be hybridized with? Albopilosum? Verdezi? Kahlenbergi? How do we know? Why aren't we concerned with B. smithi hybridization with B. auratum? As far as I can tell, there is just as much evidence for B. smithi hybridization as there is for vagans.
I don't have any brachypelma except for the vagans, so I was just asking specifically about the species that I have in my collection. I do think that there are concerns for hybridization within other species as well. I just don't own any of those yet.

I do want B. Smithi and B. Albopilosum, but I haven't gotten any yet.
 

mack1855

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And I wonder if the hybridization process is reversible??.If we have a confirmed vagans,and breed the hybrid back to it
several generations,do we end up with a vagans.Just wondering.
 

BobBarley

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And I wonder if the hybridization process is reversible??.If we have a confirmed vagans,and breed the hybrid back to it
several generations,do we end up with a vagans.Just wondering.
You'd probably end up with things that look like vagans, but obviously would still (to an extent) have its ancestors' genetics in it.
 

mack1855

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its ancestors' genetics in it.
And, there is no way to know this with spiders,correct???.Not as we can do with DNA as with vertabrates,i.e,horses,dogs, cats and
cattle?Other than color patterns,locality,size,your saying we can never be sure if we have a true,pure genetic vagans??.
Has there ever been any attempt to do genetic studies on T,s.
I'm thinking probably not.
 

BobBarley

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And, there is no way to know this with spiders,correct???.Not as we can do with DNA as with vertabrates,i.e,horses,dogs, cats and
cattle?Other than color patterns,locality,size,your saying we can never be sure if we have a true,pure genetic vagans??.
Basically, yes, we can most likely never be sure if we have a true vagans. (unless it is WC and keyed out as a vagans)
 

mack1855

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WoW.So my little B.smithi is a B.smithivaganafewothersthrowninforgoodmeasure.
I need more labeling tape!:D
 

cold blood

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Hybridizing is like a big fart during a long car ride:mooning:...once you let it out, you can't unstink the air, you just have to deal with the smell it left.:drunk:
 

Chris LXXIX

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Hybridizing is like a big fart during a long car ride:mooning:...once you let it out, you can't unstink the air, you just have to deal with the smell it left.:drunk:
True. Rutger "John Ryder" Hauer in "The Hitcher" was damn right. That's the way to deal against someone that performs such a vile action in a car ride :-s
 

Rittdk01

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I have a red rump that I'm pretty fond of. He looks pure, but I didn't breed him and can't be sure. i would be curious if I had intentions of breeding, which I don't. it would obviously be disheartening to buy an expensive spiderling and have it grow into something resembling several spiders. if you aren't planning on breeding, I wouldn't be concerned at all and just enjoy the new pets.
 
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