Pulled molt while T was still in the process, then cut it off. How wrong is this?

Is there ever a time to help a T during the molt process.


  • Total voters
    42
  • Poll closed .

nicodimus22

Arachnomancer
Arachnosupporter
Joined
Sep 26, 2013
Messages
715
What’s worse is if you have a spider that is somehow genetically weaker than average, nature would select them out (perhaps by getting stuck in a molt). When you help them, that removes that selection pressure. And that spider may go on to produce hundreds of offspring that could possess that same defect, and you now have a population of hobby spiders that can’t even make it through a molt on their own.
Assuming that a specific genetic flaw alone causes bad molts (which as far as I know isn't a theory that has yet been studied by arachnologists, possibly because there are too many other variables to consider...temps, humidity, food, gender, elevation, etc) what you're saying would only be true if you're breeding them. In these very rare cases of a T getting firmly stuck, most of us don't care about the genetics of that specimen, because it's never going to be bred anyway. We'd just like to save its life, if possible.
 

Anoplogaster

Arachnodemon
Joined
Jan 15, 2017
Messages
675
if a T was that "genetically weak" aka "inferior" then it wouldn't even survive in hobbyist care. we don't do much but ensure their food and safety, but when it come to wet molts and bad mounts in general not much we can do but possibly aid in removing stuck molts. Which if survived while normally heal after the next molt. It is likely their genetic fitness could be somewhat reduced in captivity but if it is below the level of surviving it dies so even then it is still good enough to be fine.
Exactly. So wouldn’t the inability to survive a molt on its own be considered reduced survivability in captivity?
Assuming that a specific genetic flaw alone causes bad molts (which as far as I know isn't a theory that has yet been studied by arachnologists, possibly because there are too many other variables to consider...temps, humidity, food, gender, elevation, etc) what you're saying would only be true if you're breeding them. In these very rare cases of a T getting firmly stuck, most of us don't care about the genetics of that specimen, because it's never going to be bred anyway. We'd just like to save its life, if possible.
Well, we definitely know that the molting process is initiated and controlled by ecdysteroids. Experiments that varied the concentrations of ecdysone caused variations in molting events, cuticle production, and cuticle thickness in various arthropods. You can see the abstract of an old pub here:

https://www.journals.uchicago.edu/doi/pdf/10.2307/1540371?download=true

Hormone production is definitely controlled by genetics. But I certainly agree with you that it would only apply to breeding spiders, which many folks don’t do anyways.
 

Tenebrarius

Arachnoangel
Joined
Sep 8, 2018
Messages
912
Exactly. So wouldn’t the inability to survive a molt on its own be considered reduced survivability in captivity?
only if it wasn't producing enzymes to separate the exoskeletons, then they would be essentially fused and die immediately, SO my point is that there is a degree of fitness that it will remain it. It needs to be genetically "fit" enough to be alive in general. We help them to a very small degree, so the fitness would only reduce to a small degree.

Hormone production is definitely controlled by genetics. But I certainly agree with you that it would only apply to breeding spiders, which many folks don’t do anyways.
yes I agree. BUT my point is after a while the genetic fitness would only reduce to a level humans can support Ts. We can't remove a totally fused molt, so those would die and not be supported in a gene pool. stuck molts are anomalies, and they seem to be a big deal and threat to the gene pool because nobody makes a huge fuss that their spider molted perfectly fine.

lots of spiders don't survive failed molts, and the "worse fitness" in molting then the higher risk of death per molt. An animal that molts many many times and has high death risk would likely die if their molt fitness was reduced that far.

for NOW superlative genome Ts are not exactly a concern.

SO my main point, Ts would only regress to a stable state that remains viable. truly "inferior" genes do not survive, that is why people with horrible genetic "defects" usually die, because their own body has a fitness below a viable capacity. Like Tay-Sachs Disease, humans can be born with it and will die from it before they can mature and reproduce therefore limiting to being "rare". just like in the wild.

hobby Ts have a new environment, and their fitness and overall genome would eventually settle into a certain state due to it that would be comparably different than wild Ts, who do not live in a hobby environment.

frankly your statement is along the line of, "can't survive deforestation? well wild Ts must be inferior". I mean clearly you aren't saying that but it is a similar argument of blaming fitness.
 

Anoplogaster

Arachnodemon
Joined
Jan 15, 2017
Messages
675
only if it wasn't producing enzymes to separate the exoskeletons, then they would be essentially fused and die immediately, SO my point is that there is a degree of fitness that it will remain it. It needs to be genetically "fit" enough to be alive in general. We help them to a very small degree, so the fitness would only reduce to a small degree.


yes I agree. BUT my point is after a while the genetic fitness would only reduce to a level humans can support Ts. We can't remove a totally fused molt, so those would die and not be supported in a gene pool. stuck molts are anomalies, and they seem to be a big deal and threat to the gene pool because nobody makes a huge fuss that their spider molted perfectly fine.

lots of spiders don't survive failed molts, and the "worse fitness" in molting then the higher risk of death per molt. An animal that molts many many times and has high death risk would likely die if their molt fitness was reduced that far.

for NOW superlative genome Ts are not exactly a concern.

SO my main point, Ts would only regress to a stable state that remains viable. truly "inferior" genes do not survive, that is why people with horrible genetic "defects" usually die, because their own body has a fitness below a viable capacity. Like Tay-Sachs Disease, humans can be born with it and will die from it before they can mature and reproduce therefore limiting to being "rare". just like in the wild.

hobby Ts have a new environment, and their fitness and overall genome would eventually settle into a certain state due to it that would be comparably different than wild Ts, who do not live in a hobby environment.

frankly your statement is along the line of, "can't survive deforestation? well wild Ts must be inferior". I mean clearly you aren't saying that but it is a similar argument of blaming fitness.
Ok, so would you be implying that a captive species should be allowed to degrade to the maximum extent that a person would be willing to support? My only argument here is that if we help them through molts that would otherwise kill them, future generations may possess an increased need for this type of help. So as keepers, our responsibilities in that regard may increase in the future. Just think about dogs that can’t visit the snow without little sweaters, very much unlike their wolf ancestors. We’ve bred them over many generations to require a higher degree of pampering.

Like I originally stated, I’m aware that my opinions will occupy the minority here. I’m not expecting everyone to agree with me:)
 

Tenebrarius

Arachnoangel
Joined
Sep 8, 2018
Messages
912
Ok, so would you be implying that a captive species should be allowed to degrade to the maximum extent that a person would be willing to support? My only argument here is that if we help them through molts that would otherwise kill them, future generations may possess an increased need for this type of help. So as keepers, our responsibilities in that regard may increase in the future. Just think about dogs that can’t visit the snow without little sweaters, very much unlike their wolf ancestors. We’ve bred them over many generations to require a higher degree of pampering.

Like I originally stated, I’m aware that my opinions will occupy the minority here. I’m not expecting everyone to agree with me:)
you can make your hobby "better molt" breeds, but I will continue to help Ts if they need it. Their fitness will only reduce to a lowest minimum where they still have to be viable in general, I don't see it being very serious.

good luck with your superior breeds ;)
 

Drea

Arachnosquire
Joined
Mar 26, 2019
Messages
105
@Tenebrarius @Anoplogaster

I agree with Anoplogaster that certain negative genetic trats should be attempted to be bred out. Although if something exist in a gene pool, it will always exist but will not be as prevalent and can become a rarity with impeccable breeding methods.

I relate this to the Bantwana Tribe of Zimbabwe who are also known as the ostrich people. The extreme deformities were caused by excessive inbreeding, much like how several species in the T trade world began with only bringing a few specimens back. The Bantwana tribe have been inbred for so long that the condition of deformed feet and hands which are most effected, have become a gene and will always reside in all off spring ( aka children). Over a long and extended amount of time the gene can lay dormant. That would require tribe members to only have partners with someone who didn’t share the same relatives or others with the bad gene deformities. This practice would decrease in extremity and in occurrence of deformities. However, the gene will always be there laying dormant and could appear at any time, but will be less unlikely as time passes.

I am not saying that sac mates or half sac mates in the wild don’t mate ever but it wouldn’t be continuous breeding of closely related pairs like how most of the tarantulas became available when T trade was started. We know that inbreeding causes deformities and increases chances of all sorts of problems. Too many to list.

Human involvement may have inadvertently contributed to a weakness in the molting process, along with with other less desirable trats within the species. My thoughts are if we are responsible for possibly weaken a species that could not substantially survive without our help, we should take responsibility and work towards breeding those negative trats out and strengthen the species for future hobbiest and for the very existence of the species it’s self.

With that said, I also 100% agree with Tenebrarius about helping our T’s or any other animal to save it’s life if at all possible. I believe the death of any animal should never unnecessary.

Necessary- Animals that are slaughtered for consumption is necessary to substitute our own lives ( no offense to vegetarians or vegans but I eat meat).

Necessary- Animals that are in fatal conditions, that can not be helped, are suffering and there is no easing their pain should be put down as humanly as possible to end the torturous prolonged inevitable ( I also believe in Doctor Jack Kevorkian’s work and people should have the right to choose if in those same conditions apply , but different subject).

Unnecessary- Tarantula having a bad molt and doing nothing because the problem could be genetics that shouldn’t be passed down in future generations. (Save the animal and never allow it mate to create further offspring that may or may not also carry a weakness)

Unnecessary- Destroying an animal that is born with less than desirable trats (same as above, don’t bred it).

I appreciate both of your strong views and sharing your thoughts and opinions on this subject. I couldn’t help contributing to such a wonderful conversation.

PS- My laptop is broken and I have to write everything on a cell phone and it sucks so please forgive any and all mis spellings, incorrect grammar, and punctuation errors. It’s to difficult to go back and edit.
 

MintyWood826

Arachnobaron
Joined
Jun 16, 2018
Messages
401
We don't know if bad molts are genetic. I say save them if possible; there's no need in letting an animal die pointlessly.
 

Drea

Arachnosquire
Joined
Mar 26, 2019
Messages
105
We don't know if bad molts are genetic. I say save them if possible; there's no need in letting an animal die pointlessly.
That is correct because there are a lot of factors that could contribute to a problem like that.

My post wasn’t intended to to state that a bad molt is caused by poor breeding and genetics. It is purely speculation as a result of others engaged in a debate about what should be done if bad molts were in fact a genetically flaw.

Genetic*

I really need to fix my laptop.
 
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Tenebrarius

Arachnoangel
Joined
Sep 8, 2018
Messages
912
@Drea
nice gun.

I agree there is likely many factors to cause molt issues. I don't have a problem with "superior" breeds, bred to be optimal. However I myself don't see it being a serious issue, as we are just helping out with stuck legs on the very rare occasion, and the ability to become worse genetically decreases more and more as it needs to be able to pass on the trait through mating, and the worse the ability to molt the less likely to even reach maturity and therefore sorting itself already.

I mean it could be stuck because of humidity or maybe the T is being kept improperly, If it cannot produce enough enzymes to detach the old molt during ecdysis than the molt probably wouldn't come off resulting in a complete death.

Let us say you breed a T will a genetic predisposition to not molt properly, like the sucking stomach, but the animal it self doesn't display it. Well now it produces offspring and a few exhibit this trait. they die and it solves itself, like it would in nature.

my biggest point it that the fitness cannot go down to a point where Ts are generally not viable because they wouldn't survive and it would only support healthier Ts. Though It could likely reduce to a certain minuscule degree.

I mean someone can choose not to breed it, lots of people don't intend to breed some of their Ts.
 

Drea

Arachnosquire
Joined
Mar 26, 2019
Messages
105
I don’t know how to quote on this thing yet but you are absolutely right about fitness. There should never be a time that it is ok to lower the quality just because the survival rate will decrease. People can only do so much but nature will take its course.

Thank you. It’s a Tikka T3 Lite .308 with matching barrel, receiver and scope rings that hold a Nikon prostaff 3x9x40. 3 shot MOA. Amazing rifle.
 

Anoplogaster

Arachnodemon
Joined
Jan 15, 2017
Messages
675
I mean it could be stuck because of humidity or maybe the T is being kept improperly, If it cannot produce enough enzymes to detach the old molt during ecdysis than the molt probably wouldn't come off resulting in a complete death.

Let us say you breed a T will a genetic predisposition to not molt properly, like the sucking stomach, but the animal it self doesn't display it. Well now it produces offspring and a few exhibit this trait. they die and it solves itself, like it would in nature.
But my point is that it’s not necessarily as black and white as you’re putting it. A genetic flaw is not necessarily a guaranteed death, especially when we help them through it. And hormone production doesn’t hit some linear boundary, where reaching a minimum amount allows a molt, and anything less kills them. The hormones, as shown from the published literature, affects cuticle thickness and quality. Again, not black and white.
 

The Seraph

Arachnolord
Joined
Sep 14, 2018
Messages
601
I don’t know how to quote on this thing yet but you are absolutely right about fitness. There should never be a time that it is ok to lower the quality just because the survival rate will decrease. People can only do so much but nature will take its course.

Thank you. It’s a Tikka T3 Lite .308 with matching barrel, receiver and scope rings that hold a Nikon prostaff 3x9x40. 3 shot MOA. Amazing rifle.
In order to quote look in the bottom right corner of a comment. You should see a button that says quote.
 

Drea

Arachnosquire
Joined
Mar 26, 2019
Messages
105
In order to quote look in the bottom right corner of a comment. You should see a button that says quote.
@Drea
nice gun.

I agree there is likely many factors to cause molt issues. I don't have a problem with "superior" breeds, bred to be optimal. However I myself don't see it being a serious issue, as we are just helping out with stuck legs on the very rare occasion, and the ability to become worse genetically decreases more and more as it needs to be able to pass on the trait through mating, and the worse the ability to molt the less likely to even reach maturity and therefore sorting itself already.

I mean it could be stuck because of humidity or maybe the T is being kept improperly, If it cannot produce enough enzymes to detach the old molt during ecdysis than the molt probably wouldn't come off resulting in a complete death.

Let us say you breed a T will a genetic predisposition to not molt properly, like the sucking stomach, but the animal it self doesn't display it. Well now it produces offspring and a few exhibit this trait. they die and it solves itself, like it would in nature.

my biggest point it that the fitness cannot go down to a point where Ts are generally not viable because they wouldn't survive and it would only support healthier Ts. Though It could likely reduce to a certain minuscule degree.

I mean someone can choose not to breed it, lots of people don't intend to breed some of their Ts.
In order to quote look in the bottom right corner of a comment. You should see a button that says quote.
I tried that and it quoted everything. Umm
 

The Seraph

Arachnolord
Joined
Sep 14, 2018
Messages
601
I tried that and it quoted everything. Umm
In order to quote a portion, highlight it. A quote bare should show up. Alternatively, there is a way to make quotes in the response creator. There is a plus sign that when clicked, reveal multiple other options. Quote is one of them. It will produce the means for you to make a quote. Just write, or copy, what you want to quote into. It will then display it.
Like this.
Hope this helps!
 

Formerphobe

Arachnoking
Old Timer
Joined
Feb 27, 2011
Messages
2,336
After watching the video, it did appear as though the spider was not extricating itself normally from the old exoskeleton. I couldn't see the part that he said was stuck, though it did seem to be in the vicinity of the booklung, as someone else stated.
Since he had already determined the tarantula was a mature male, it makes sense to just trim off the stuck, non-life-threatening part on the abdomen and move on.
Sometimes previous injuries, even those unbeknownst to the keeper, can cause a problem molt.

I frequently will pull a molt as soon as the spider is free from it, though I try not to pull it out from under them if they're still in contact with it. I usually trim off the abdomen part caudal to the epigynal area and give the abdomen skin back to them to to reclaim the molting fluids, if they are so inclined.

I've had a few individuals with molting issues. One was a B boehmei who started prolapsing her uterus externus at about 3 inch legspan. She went through a couple more molts seemingly without issue, except the uterus bulged more after each molt. Then there came the molt where her exuvia was stuck to one booklung. I helped her out of that molt and the next one where it stuck to both booklungs. Each time, the uterus bulged more, and the booklungs were more involved. Her final molt (~5" legspan), the uterus was protruding more than 1/4 inch from her abdomen and both cranial booklungs were significantly impacted. She did not survive that one in spite of my best efforts. Up until her demise at her last molt, she ate and behaved normally between. I did feed her sparingly to not add pressure to her "herniation."

I had a very mature A eutylenum who came to me with a huge, huge behind. Her first molt with me was uneventful. She did not lose any appreciable girth. Next molt, she got stuck right at the pedicle. By the time I found her, she had all four rear legs stuck, the exuvia was cinched up at the pedicle and she was starting to harden up. I managed to get her out of that only losing three legs. She did fine until the next molt when the previous issues compounded. I let her go.

I've watched some spiders molt in some seemingly disastrous positions. B hamorii penultimate male molted with two legs bent backwards under him. A very large B hamorii female came out of her molt sideways. E murinus molted in a section of her burrow that seemed way too small. It took her quite awhile to get extricated and situated, and she did enlarge the burrow after the fact. They all managed to come out fine with no intervention. In most cases, intervention should be as the absolute last resort. It does, on occasion, become necessary.
 

Tenebrarius

Arachnoangel
Joined
Sep 8, 2018
Messages
912
But my point is that it’s not necessarily as black and white as you’re putting it. A genetic flaw is not necessarily a guaranteed death, especially when we help them through it. And hormone production doesn’t hit some linear boundary, where reaching a minimum amount allows a molt, and anything less kills them. The hormones, as shown from the published literature, affects cuticle thickness and quality. Again, not black and white.
When the flaw inhibits apolysis then yes it is a guaranteed death and even if not the first molt then the second molt, there would be many times for an opportunity of death.

She did not survive that one in spite of my best efforts. Up until her demise at her last molt, she ate and behaved normally between. I did feed her sparingly to not add pressure to her "herniation."
as shown here, the T was not able to be helped and died failing to reproduce I assume. To this user, I am sorry for your loss but this example is perfect to show my argument how a genetic molting flaw would not be able to be viable and cease continuation of their genes. Likely relatives exist that could carry a similar flaw is genetic, and their offspring contain the possibility of exhibiting it but those would simply die if it was severe enough.​

Ts with genetic flaws as bad as you are worried about wouldn't even have the chance to reproduce.

EDIT: this has gone beyond the topic of the thread, and if you would like to create a discussion on it you have the capacity to do so.
 

Formerphobe

Arachnoking
Old Timer
Joined
Feb 27, 2011
Messages
2,336
as shown here, the T was not able to be helped and died failing to reproduce I assume. To this user, I am sorry for your loss but this example is perfect to show my argument how a genetic molting flaw would not be able to be viable and cease continuation of their genes. Likely relatives exist that could carry a similar flaw is genetic, and their offspring contain the possibility of exhibiting it but those would simply die if it was severe enough.
No, she did not reproduce, nor would she have been allowed to in my care.
The weakest do tend to get weeded out fairly early on in some species; and weakness and genetic anomalies propagated in others.
 

Anoplogaster

Arachnodemon
Joined
Jan 15, 2017
Messages
675
EDIT: this has gone beyond the topic of the thread, and if you would like to create a discussion on it you have the capacity to do so
I just replied to this thread with my views, and was debated upon. Just defending my views. And trust me, I have very little desire to start a thread to have circular debates with people.
 
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