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Poison immunity

Discussion in 'Scorpions' started by Zarathustra, Sep 17, 2006.

  1. Galadriel

    Galadriel Arachnoknight Old Timer

    The man you're thinking of is Bill Haast. He runs the sepentarium in FL, has since the dark ages =)
    There hasn't been enough study on venom allergy and the potential to develope it through injections anyone to give a definitive answer. It is, however, well documented that inhaling small amounts of dried venom over time can put you at a high risk for allergy, even to species you've never been in contact with. BGF is the perfect case in point. Though I doubt any of us will ever have the kind of exposure he has. ;)

    Does anyone else remember this from the late 90's?
    There was a hot keeper in the States who spent several years doing self injections, though I'd rather not mention him by name at this juncture as it was a huge spot of controvery years ago.
    Anyway, he was injecting himself with Naja n. k. venom for some time in the hopes of building an immunity. Once he believed he had achieved the desired results, he let one of his specimines bite him. (Boggles the mind!) There was no reaction to the first bite, rinse and repeat. On the third attempt he managed a huge envenomation from another of his kaouthia and promptly hit the floor. Antivenin had to be administered. Here's the kicker: the introduction of the antivenin into his system completely destroyed all resistance he had managed to build up. Resistance is really a better word than immunity, but I digress.
    As a way to safeguard yourself against envenomations, it's at best impractical. More likely, it would be fatal.

    Allergies to the protiens in venoms are not the same as allergies to mammal dander. I don't believe anyone has ever died of anaphylaxis from petting fluffy one too many times, though I imagine many have wished for death to stop all the itchy eye, sneezing mess =D
  2. To use a common example, Alcohol.
    Those of you that drink/drank alot will know if you consume alcohol on a weekly(or be it daily) basis then stop drinking for a long period of time and take it up again will find that the first drink hits you pretty hard!

    Could resistance be achievable with scorpion venom? as Galadriel said it kind of worked for snake venom, could it for scorp venom?

    Will the first guinnea pig step up:D:wicked:
  3. ectic

    ectic Arachnosquire

    But did you know that alcoolic people often died from direct alcool related sickness ?

    I usually agree that what does'nt kill you make you stronger. But I also say no one can try to get venom immunity without knowing it is really unsafe and also not 100% garanteed. I mean even the people trying probably agree on that.

    There is also Venom mutation happening where the venom for a single specie in a location can mutate due to numerous factors (inhabitat, prays, pollution .. ).

    Another problem I see is cross species breading wich can occur and create new venoms.

    Also with neurotoxic venom that is working on potassium and other electrolytes channels, I am quite sure that if you get a sting with a 5.0 mEq/L potassium level in the blood (due the health or eating to much potassium .. oranges and bananas for instance), you would probably have big problems.

    I mean, try it if you want but be warned.
  4. Normski2020uk

    Normski2020uk Arachnolord Old Timer

    Peeps, i have strong medical background, of being a militery medical Tech. Allergees, are linked to the immune system, and can come and go, and differ in strength of reaction. The point i was trying to make in my earier postes were, you can try and make yourself immune by geting stung or self adminestrating venom 20 times, and on the 21st time have a massive anafflact reaction and die, or you could be one of those lucky people and be born immune. My point is why would you want to be immune to scorpion venom??? If your handling hazardous scorps do it in a controled enviroment, useing protective equipment. Accidents happen, but Ha HO thats life.
    While we are on the subject of Venom and alergic reactions, Anti venoms( and im not suere if any exist for Scorps) are generaly made form pig or hourse enzimes, and have a very high risk of inducing a massive alergic reaction, this is why medics will wait right up to the point of no return before adminestering it then stand back and prey.
  5. Michiel

    Michiel Arachnoking Old Timer

    So is with every allergy???:rolleyes:
  6. Michiel

    Michiel Arachnoking Old Timer

    Only in venoms, one person gets a bigger reaction than another. There are people being hospitalized by eating strawberries...
  7. Normski2020uk

    Normski2020uk Arachnolord Old Timer

    Agreed, some unfortunates have very nasty reactions to cats n dogs, to the point of respiratory disstress/arrest. An alergic reaction it just that regardless of what it is, rain water, sun light, nuts, venom etc, it all does the same thing to your body, the exream of the reaction depends on that individual.
  8. Galadriel

    Galadriel Arachnoknight Old Timer

    Antivenin in the US is most often produced from horses, and allergy tests are performed on the "victim" before the a/v is given if they are not already in the throws of cardiac or respritory arrest. The Australians use sheep, which is much more effective, has virtually no incidents of allergic reaction and is far too expensive to produce in the US, unfortunately. It's a simple manner of population. We have far more horses than sheep and you can get a larger quantity of serum per animal. Profit over health. *sigh*
    Sheep are a more genetically comapatible with humans than horses are, hense the lack of allergy. However, when a reaction does occur when the horse serum is given, it's usually quickly and effectively combated with antihytemines, like injectable benadryl and a lovely dose of epinephrin.
    I think myself VERY fortunate (knock on wood) to have never taken a hot bite. Safety first!
  9. Michiel

    Michiel Arachnoking Old Timer

    The venomlab of Arizona state University uses goats for the same reason....
  10. Normski2020uk

    Normski2020uk Arachnolord Old Timer

    Good to know, never knew goats and sheep were used, and yes anaphalatic shock is very easeily controled if you are in the correct enviroment, with the correct kit, it reverses in secounds. Still leaves you a tad unwell though.
  11. Yama Sahak

    Yama Sahak Arachnopeon

    Scorpion Venom Question

    Does anybody know what kind of equipment they use to milk scorpions of their venom? Please don't tell me to squeeze their nipples; I'm getting quite sick of that joke.
  12. Normski2020uk

    Normski2020uk Arachnolord Old Timer

    I dont know how Scorps inject. If its involutry, simply pressing their telson through a membrain should do it. If not you will have to encorage it to stike a membrain. I do know they can controle the amount they pump out though, that sugests its a volutery action. But contradicting my self a little, if you grab hold of a scorps telison and push it through a mambrain, im sure it would get suitably worked up ti inject..
  13. Michiel

    Michiel Arachnoking Old Timer

    There are several ways to extract scorpion venom. I only know two:

    1. electrical impulse;
    2. Let it sting trough a membrane;

    The disadvantage of electrical impulse is that the scorpion does not only emits venom, but also its excrements which make the venom collected less pure. Tom (tityus) knows al lot about this subject.....
  14. 8ball

    8ball Arachnobaron Old Timer

    Sting yourself with an androctonus australis once a day and see if you can do it ;)
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