Poecilotheria subfusca, and getting the "right" one.

[Saf]

Oh god, no. Not another subfusca Highland/Lowland topic. :sarcasm:

Well, sorry about that my friends, but I have a couple of questions that require a definitive answer, and did not want to be burned at the stake for thread necromancy.


Over the last 6 weeks or so, I've spent some considerable time doing my research and due diligence into Poecilotheria subfusca, with the intention of possibly acquiring one at some point in the near future. (If anyone is unsure as to my readiness for this kind of T, you're welcome to browse through this old topic to see that I've prepared myself as best I can: Poecilotherias - Your personal experiences?, and I have gained a little more experience since then with my GBB too).

So, to the topic at hand. I've made good use of the search engine to read countless topics here at AB (including: Lowland & Highland, "highland/lowland", Poki questions, P. subfusca color forms, and What is the difference between HIGHLAND and LOWLAND p. subfusca?, amongst others, aswell as many topics at other forums on the net; in relation to the much debated differences between the so called "Highland/Lowland" forms of P. subfusca.

Before you doze off, the reason for my questions, is that I specifically want a certain 'type' of subsufca, and with not a lot of money to play with, I need to be absolutely sure that I'm getting the one I want before ordering, as I cannot afford to get it wrong and need to buy the other variety too.

According to Michael Jacobi (who I understand is a well respected figure in the hobby) in this Arachnoculture article: http://www.exoticfauna.com/arachnoculture/5/AC-i5a2-p1.html, we have what could truly be classed as a "Highland" form, hailing from some 6168 feet above sea level at Nuwara Eliya; and then two other sites where P. subfusca have been collected, in the form of the capital, Kandy at 1526-1640 feet up, and Matale around 17 miles to the north from there.

That should be relatively simple then; we have two distinct colour forms of subfusca, one from Nuwara Eliya, and the other from the lower elevations of the Knuckles and Hanthana mountain ranges, but the confusion seems to arise in that no one seems to agree on what colour form comes from which area.

It would make sense to me, if the darker form originated from the vastly higher ranging Nuwara Eliya, for the same reasons given by Michael Jacobi in the above linked article, but one only has to browse through the many topics linked above and elsewhere around the net, to see that for every handful of people displaying the "highland" form as the darker one, there are as many others offering it as the lighter colour form, and vice versa.

And then of course, just to compound the confusion further still, we have respected breeders suggesting that both colour forms have been seen to emerge from the same sac.

Anyway, I'm certainly not looking to stoke the fires of an old debate here that has been done to death and without resolution. I am simply looking for some help, to make sure I get the subfusca that I want.

What I am after, is the gorgeous 'chocolate and cream' coloured lighter colour form, as seen below in this image on the-livingrainforest.co.uk:

http://www.the-livingrainforest.co.uk/living/images/price/RErKU4DgC-Poecilotheria subfusca.jpg

and also evidenced in many of Fartowski's beautiful images recently in the Poecilotheria Genus picture thread; rather than the much darker (almost black) colour form exampled in the Arachnoculture article above.

So, my questions then my friends; firstly, how can I ensure that I get the light colour form I desire, when I've seen the light form sold as both "Highland" and "Lowland" in equal measure, and secondly, until this whole confusion is finally settled one way or the other, would it not just make far more sense to refer to them as Light/Dark colour forms of P. subfusca (LCF, DCF etc), instead of levels of montaine elevation?


(I don't have internet access at home at present, but will check back as soon as I can to see any replies)

Thanks for your time.

 

[cnapple]

Are you looking to buy a sling? If not, I would think the best way to ensure you get what you are looking for is to buy a mature or subadult female from a breeder you trust and request pictures of the individual before you purchase her. If you have your heart set on a sling, your best bet is to go with a trusted breeder who knows their stuff, and rely on their expertise that you are getting the spider you want.

 

[Saf]

Are you looking to buy a sling? If not, I would think the best way to ensure you get what you are looking for is to buy a mature or subadult female from a breeder you trust and request pictures of the individual before you purchase her. If you have your heart set on a sling, your best bet is to go with a trusted breeder who knows their stuff, and rely on their expertise that you are getting the spider you want.

Yes, I'm looking ideally for something in the late sling to early juvie stages, as not much in the way of free finances to allow for the cost of something larger.
This is the issue I face, as I don't want to buy what I think is light colour form, only to have it grow into the darker one. The DCF is still an attractive spider, but in my personal opinion, the LCF subfusca is in a league of its own, simply stunning.

I'm in the UK, and don't really know any breeders personally, as I'm still relatively new to keeping Ts.

 

[advan]

From what I have gathered the "Highland" is the dark form and the "Lowland" is the lighter form. I have seen many pictures claiming the opposite but I go by Rick West's site. I believe you want the "lowland" form or "bara."

Also be careful about posting photos that aren't yours. >>>Read<<<

 

[Amoeba]

I've found Tarantula Canada's photo gallery to be a valuable resource. From what I can see I agree with advan about the Lowland = light Highland = dark. I'm sure you could just ask to see a picture of the female who laid the sac before purchasing.

 

[takelondon]

I've found Tarantula Canada's photo gallery to be a valuable resource. From what I can see I agree with advan about the Lowland = light Highland = dark. I'm sure you could just ask to see a picture of the female who laid the sac before purchasing.

This is particularly good advice. Asking for a picture or at least a description of the female's coloration is probably your best bet if you're in the market for a spiderling or juvenile. That way, you can be sure you're getting what you want.

Good luck finding your chocolate and cream P. subfusca!


-Kendra

 

[synyster]

It is definate that the light colored form that you are looking for is Poecilotheria subfusca "lowland", or as some have now named it, Poecilotheria bara. You are right when saying that the darker form is from the higher grounds. No they do not come from the same sac. There has been trials at breeding MM lowland X MF highland and vice-versa, to see if they would emerge in two different color forms, and up to date, all sacs have been duds. The only one that I know of (AlainL on AB) who has had success in "cross-breeding" these two colorforms, resulted into 1 sling that survived to 2i. To add up to the wierdness, the specimen has matured into a gynandromorph and is currently kept at tarantulacanada headquarters. If there was any other successful breeding between both forms, I haven't heard of it.

 

[Philth]

. There has been trials at breeding MM lowland X MF highland and vice-versa, to see if they would emerge in two different color forms, and up to date, all sacs have been duds. .

How where the males identified ? With all the confusion over the 2 morphs and people labeling them the wrong way its to hard to really tell if they havent been mixed successfully in the past. Unless someone raises a few egg sacs to adults to see what they turn out to be, its hard to say that they cant come from the same sac. On top of that you would have to be sure both parents were the same form in the first place. I havent heard of anybody taking the time to do this. Im not trying to discredit yours or anybodys theory here, I just think this mess will never have a easy answer. I'd love to se a pic of that gynandromorph as well, maybe Martin can share a pic of it. Since its a supposed hybrid between the highland and lowland, witch form is the female side exhibiting?

Later, Tom

 

[synyster]

Valid point Tom. I don't know if the specimens had been followed as so. But I do know that there was no success whatsoever in breeding both forms.

For the gynandromorph, here's a link to a french forum I'm part of in which Martin posted a picture. I'll let you judge for yourself

http://www.repticlic.com/t19872-ma-premiere-mygale-gynandromorphe

IMO, it has the complete looks of a highland. And maybe if he did get a better picture he'll share it with us

 

[ShadowBlade]

I'm still not a big fan of believing there is all that much of a distinct genetic difference between the two morphs.. And also I am willing to bet that pic you posted sir, is a rather freshly molted specimen.

-Sean

 

[Poxicator]

The name P. bara was removed by Peter Kirk in 1996, but it seems the European continent prefers to stick with this old name. When I asked Soren Rafn why he sells them under this name he explained its what people refer to them as, despite it being wrong. Pocock id this species back in 1895 as P. subfusca, Chamberlain as P. bara in 1917 but since 1996 it has reverted to its original name.
When I spoke to Peter Kirk about the 2 different forms, which some have suggested are 2 different species, he told me the taxonomy of each was identical, and that these were locational differences.
The habitat of each is now very clearly defined with the highland found at and above Nuwara Eliya where temperatures require you to wear more than a T-shirt, and lowland found from Kandy to lower elevations where your T-shirt will get moist with the humidity. What seperates the two areas are huge tea plantations, its a physical barrier that devides them, and from what I could see it creates an island of high fauna.
The highland is indeed darker and smaller. This might be as a consequence of food supply and camouflage.
Unfortunately there are plenty of instances where highland and lowland are not recognised, whether due to opinions or lack of information. So, its likely the 2 have been bred before. This might provide an answer to why people see 2 forms from the same sac.

I had 5 subfusca, bred from WC females, that I subsequently bred and produced no more than 11 survivors after the female discarded the sac, and interestingly enough so did I for a period - the eggs were found in a blister of the sac. The original 5 and slings from them (Jan 2011) all appear light and creamy which is in contrast to the darker highland slings that I purchased from Michael Scheller as SEAS in January. However, the colouration changes (eg prior to moult) and its easy to confuse most pokies if using a cursory glance or photos that might have a colour hue to them caused by artificial lighting.

In answer to your question I'd suggest finding a good source for your slings. Michael Scheller and Olaf vist the UK on several occassions and may be at Kempton in October, but are certainly at SEAS in Jan 2012. Other German breeders are also worth considering and most will post. If my female produces a sac I shall be selling some too but my current slings are purely for breeding purposes as Im confident of their origins. You might also consider TSS for your pokies, although I believe they are relocating at mo so you'll need a little patience.

 

[Philth]

The habitat of each is now very clearly defined with the highland found at and above Nuwara Eliya where temperatures require you to wear more than a T-shirt, and lowland found from Kandy to lower elevations where your T-shirt will get moist with the humidity.

And some dealers sell them as "Kandy Highland's" :? I agree that they probably have been mixed whether its opinions or lack of knowledge , whats done is done. Thanks for the informative post Poxicator.

Later, Tom

 

[synyster]

Agreed. That was a very good post, thanks Pox.

 

[Saf]

Good evening.

Thank you very much everyone, there's some excellent and very useful advice and information here.

Much appreciate your time to help me out.

Someone I know is off to Hamm for the weekend as it happens, so I'm hopeful they may be able to send a little subfusca my way.

Fingers crossed.

Cheers,

Saf.

 

[Saf]

Well, as posted in my other subfusca topic, I'm finally getting my favourite spider next week! :biggrin:

But I'm back in this topic too, as recently I happened to have a really interesting conversation, during a chance encounter with a Sri Lankan guy from Kandy. So I thought I'd share the details for anyone who might be interested.

Was trying to write this up late last night, but kept falling asleep, so done it again properly today instead.


So, I'm sat in my favourite steam room, at my local Health Club. There were probably six or seven others in the 'room', and as England are currently in Test Match battle against Pakistan, the topic of conversation turned to Cricket. This drew a previously silent gentleman (who later introduced himself as 'Sanat') to join in the conversation, stating that "as a Sri Lankan, I love my Cricket too!"

When he later mentioned that he was from Kandy, I couldn't resist the opportunity to ask if he knows much about their beautiful Poecilotheria subfusca spiders.

Sanat's eyes lit up, at the opportunity to talk about his "beloved little friends"! :biggrin:

He was delighted to spend some time telling me some very interesting things, about a topic he was evidently very passionate about: subfusca's!

Not long after it became apparent that large, venomous, teleporting tarantulas, was to become the next topic on the agenda, for some reason I cannot quite fathom, the other members in the steam room at that point, began to mysteriously excuse themselves and disappear; as if having suddenly remembered somewhere important they had to be.

Leaving Sanat and I, to talk subfuscas for a while. :biggrin:

It's been a few weeks since, so I'll paraphrase some of the points he raised, as best as I can recall.


- In reply to a comment I made regarding the "confusion" surrounding the "Highland/Lowland" thing, he laughed:

"Confusion!? Haha! What's so confusing? Is a simple thing. There are three main (as yet "unrecognised" scientifically) 'subspecies' to subfusca. But, not only three colour forms. Three 'base' colour forms, that show slight variations in shade, the higher or lower in altitude they are found." - (note: he used 'subspecies' "for want of other word").

He showed me later, pictures on his phone (using internet) of the different colour forms, and told me where they come from, and why.

I'll present it, as he did to me:

"The ones you call "Highland" (all subfusca's are technically 'highland' spiders anyway), these are the real darkest ones".

(I'll link some images as I go. These are not 'his' images. Just ones used to show the colourations, so I won't embed them here, just link them). - credit to each copyright owner as appropriate.

From Nuwara Eliya:

http://www.tarantulas.com/photos/P_subfusca_new.jpg

The darkest subfusca's, predominantly black.

From areas below Nuwara Eliya:

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/222/img0456ct.jpg/

Carapace showing a slight lightening around the edges.

- At this point, Sanat tells me that some 25 years or more ago, some locals decided to collect some specimens from in and around Nuwara Eliya, and released them around an area very close to the Randenigala Resevoir Wildlife Sanctuary (near Kandy); where they were regularly monitored to see how they would adapt to the lower altitude and higher temperatures.

"Sadly, many did not survive, but happily there were some that did, went on to breed successfully, and established themselves in the area".

These newly established specimens began to look more like this:

http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/attachment.php?attachmentid=92190&d=1313084381

Still having a central dark strip on carapace, but with much more tan colours around edges.

- Then Sanat moved on to the subfusca's which are already native to Kandy, and nearby areas at even lower altitude, which he says look like this:

http://g.imagehost.org/0776/DSCF5146.jpg

Having the dark abdomens, but with very light carapaces.


- Then we move on to another form, which Sanat says are mostly seen in and around Matale (pronounced Martyr-ley):

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/91/122222sg4pc5.jpg/

http://media.photobucket.com/image/poecilotheria subfusca lowland/Poxicator/subfusca_bums_430.jpg

Much lighter, kind of tanish colour on abdomen instead of black, and much lighter carapace.

And just to add to the fun, Sanat states that north of Matale (town) but still in Matale province, they find these:

http://farm2.staticflickr.com/1361/5136078182_43e7f4028d_z.jpg

http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3263/3554260903_8888b3ac66_z.jpg

"with almost a kind of central stripe that runs from carapace to abdomen"

and south of Matale, nearing Kandy, they find these: (my favourites)


http://www.the-livingrainforest.co.uk/living/images/price/RErKU4DgC-Poecilotheria subfusca.jpg


After all this, I asked him, "hold on, I thought you said it wasn't confusing!? A simple matter!?"

To which he laughed:

"only confusing when wanting to make our spiders fit your labels".

"You want to avoid confusion, just look at subfusca like this:

subfusca Nuwara Eliya: Very very dark.

subfusca Kandy: Darkish abdomen, lighter carapace.

subfusca Matale: Lighter abdomens, lighter carapace.


The higher altitude you go, in all these places, the darker shades and patterns of subfusca you find.

Also, over time, migration has occurred, so apart from really dark Nuwara Eliya subfusca's, you can find colour variations in most areas. Word to remember, is - predominantly. So Nuwara Eliya almost always very dark. Kandy, predominantly Dark abdomen, lighter carapace, but some lighter abdomens too. Matale, predominantly lighter abdomens, lighter carapace, but darker shades in higher areas.

- On Highland/Lowland:

"If you must have High/Low-land, then Nuwara Eliya: P. subfusca Highland. Matale/Kandy: P. subfusca Lowland. But Kandy is between 1526-1640 feet above sea level, so I laugh at your 'lowland'.

Better would be to say P. subfusca Nuwara Eliya, P. subfusca Matale, and P. subfusca Kandy, (forms). Remembering that whilst there are three predominant colour forms, there still are various slight altitude fluctuations."

- I asked: "so are you basically saying that the different colour forms are due to the altitude the spider lives at then?"

"In main part, yes. Higher altitude darker spider. Makes easier to absorb more heat for spider. But we see interesting things, when moving spiders to lower terrain. As they adapt, newer generations will become gradually lighter, until reach ideal balance. Evolution of species I say. Many think not just actual altitude responsible, but temperature at which egg sacs are raised. Prepares spiderlings for environment to be born in."

- I asked Sanat about the subfusca's nearest to where he lives:

"Mainly my ones are normal Kandy lighter colour forms. But I also have south Matale/North Kandy border ones here.

- I asked "by 'your' ones, do you mean you keep some as pets too?"

"In a manner of speaking, you could say pets. My beloved little friends live in the trees at the end of my garden! I don't need to put them in cages, my subfusca friends are free to live where they like. It is better where they are than in cages. They do me a wonderful job of eating the nasty big red ants and annoying grasshoppers in my garden!"

According to Sanat, (and the pictures he had on his phone that were his) he has two colonies of subfusca, south Matale and Kandy varieties, both living in separate trees!

Lucky guy.

Well anyway, don't know if it's all of any use to anyone, but I found it interesting anyway, to hear about subfusca's from a Kandy native's perspective, so thought I would pass on what he shared with me. Personally, I know nothing, so please refrain from envenomating the messenger. :tongue:

(All sounds a bit of an Avic-like mess to me, lol).

There were a few other bits too, but this is already very long, so if anyone wants to ask anything I've not covered, I'll let you know if Sanat made any references to your questions.

Thanks for reading.

 

[jayefbe]

Thanks very much for the post and I must say it's valuable information, especially in regards to clarifying the locations of these different forms and the putative differences.

That being said, I'm having a difficult time believing that these differences (which are extremely subtle) are actually due to population specific variations, and not individual variation. In particular, what you post as representative of Matale, are all juvenile tarantulas. Clearly, these pictures are not even indicative of what the actual photographed spider will look like upon maturity. Furthermore, does anyone have any collection data on where exactly these forms have been collected from? I was under the belief that the hobby versions of these spiders were only collected from two populations. If that is the case, how is it that representatives of many different localities (including one that was collected in one location and then introduced elsewhere and allowed to interbreed for multiple generations) are found in the United States hobby (not these pictures per se, but I've seen photographs that resembled every 'locality' from individuals in the US)? It's entirely possible that I'm wrong about this, so if anyone has information please feel free to interject. I'm open to changing my mind based on strong evidence, but I'm inclined to believe that outside of 'highland' and 'lowland' it's variation due to sex, age/development, and variability among individuals.

 

[InvertFix]

From what I have gathered the "Highland" is the dark form and the "Lowland" is the lighter form. I have seen many pictures claiming the opposite but I go by Rick West's site. I believe you want the "lowland" form or "bara."

Also be careful about posting photos that aren't yours. >>>Read<<<

IME I have found the exact opposite! I thought the dark almost black was lowland/bara? And the light color form was subfusca/highland?

GYAH!!!! I hate this subject lol I can't ever figure it out. ;-;

---------- Post added 02-02-2012 at 02:43 PM ----------

Whoops, just read through the whole thread. Thanks guys.

 

[Philth]

My head hurts.

Later, Tom

 

[Saf]

Thanks very much for the post and I must say it's valuable information, especially in regards to clarifying the locations of these different forms and the putative differences.

Welcome.

That being said, I'm having a difficult time believing that these differences (which are extremely subtle) are actually due to population specific variations, and not individual variation. In particular, what you post as representative of Matale, are all juvenile tarantulas. Clearly, these pictures are not even indicative of what the actual photographed spider will look like upon maturity.

On this point, I'm afraid I have no idea. When showing me the images, he was just running a google search on his iphone, and then stopping when coming to one that was "closest" to what he said came from each area. I was just using the same ones.
I don't know enough to have an opinion of my own regarding the colour variations, but was certainly under the impression that regardless of how old the spiders in the images he used are, that he was certainly saying the Matale subfusca's are predominantly lighter than all the others.

As for seeing the same colours in US collections, possibly it may be related to his opinion about the colour variations being due to incubation temperatures?

Anyway, have to go for tonight, but will check in tomorrow to see if anything I can respond to.

My head hurts.

Lol, mine too.

 

[jayefbe]

As for seeing the same colours in US collections, possibly it may be related to his opinion about the colour variations being due to incubation temperatures?

According to your quotes, from what I can discern, he says something akin to pigmentation variation as an adaptive response to altitude, or phenotypic plasticity based on incubation temperatures.

Adaptation theory: It's possible that P. subfusca is one contiguous interbreeding group of populations for which there is geographic variation based on altitude. That still makes it difficult to explain why P. subfusca 'lowland' are not capable of interbreeding with P. subfusca 'highland' (if indeed that is accurate). It also makes it difficult to determine why so much variability exists in the hobby forms of P. subfusca 'highland' given that they were collected from only a single population (again, please correct me if I'm wrong).

Incubation theory: P. subfusca 'highland' variability could be explained by differences in incubation temperatures (higher temp, lighter coloration). This scenario still doesn't explain why 'highland' and 'lowland' are not able to interbreed, but it could explain the latter. If that's the case, it would be rather simple to test. If I get my 'highland' girl to breed any time soon (anyone got a MM???), I'll incubate the eggs at different temperatures once they are pulled from the mother. That won't control for the very very early development, but I could pull the sac much earlier than is typical, before most development has taken place. Hopefully at least before pigmentation determination has been set. (That brings up another issue, since there is vast morphological change in pigmentation within this species as it matures, if it's a shift in gene regulation underlying the change in phenotype then the genes underlying the differences are active during the period of morphological transformation. In which case, egg incubation may not have any effect but temperature just before or at the time of molting into adult form). This is a hypothesis that can be easily tested, and I'd be more than willing to do it.