Poecilotheria fasciata for my second T?

AmberDawnDays

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Ive been searching for a Trinidad chevron juv. for a week now. Maybe i'm bad at searching but i cant find one. Ill check the classifieds here tonight though.
Searching for a week is nothing. There are species I've been looking for since getting into the hobby last December (which isn't that long ago- I know). Of course they come along and I could get them if I was willing to pay anything asked, but when trying to purchase a specific specimen of a certain size within a certain price range and then add in shipping, sometimes it can take a while. This hobby requires patience.

What would happen if I would stick my finger in the enclosure of one of my Lasiodoras? It would charge forward and bite while I'm pretty sure that my Poecilotherias (with the exception of my P.ornata) would either do nothing or back off (althought I wouldn't wanna risk it). Does that mean, L.parahybanas are aggressive or not beginner-friendly? I wonder. ;)
It's the bite potency that makes them not beginner friendly. Well that's one reason, & here are all the reasons I know of:
1. Speed
2. Care requirements
3. Bite potency
4. Aggressiveness

All these things are considered when ranking Ts as beginner, intermediate, or advanced. I've never had an OW, but I'm pretty sure it's their speed and bite potency that mostly makes them more of an advanced species.

I've never understood the desire for people to so quickly feel the need to jump right on into OW without really embracing all NW ts have to offer. One month in the hobby simply isn't long enough, but to each their own.
 

Venom1080

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Another one of those threads. Alright. I really want to respond now.

I know that you guys see many things completely different then the keepers in europe and especially in germany. I also don't deny that you do many things better in the hobby but should you not consider being a bit less paranoid and a bit more informative when it comes to this? There are so many threads here regarding this topic and they all look like this: "Can I get an OW T as my 10." "Can i get a P.murinus as my 5. T" "No!" "Hell no, they're dangerous, unpredictable and evil!"

When it comes to other topics this forum is often on point and informative but when it comes to specific tarantulas you guys act like you are writing to childs and have to protect people from their stupidity. Being more careful or expecting more consequences when doing mistakes=not suitable/appropiate for beginners? I don't think so. People should start with calm and slow spiders? People have their beginner-spiders for years and then they finally get one of those demonized old world-tarantulas which will act different. Fear also doesn't really help in this case. What's the difference and how does it not cause the opposite of the suggestion that working your way up is the way to go? I think it's more likely people underestimate old-world tarantulas when they have their "calm fuzzy little friends" for years and then have to work with those evil split-second spiders.

In germany and other european countries people will tell you that there are no beginner tarantulas and you can start with everything. Let's be serious here for one moment: Of course you can start with a Poecilotheria. You obviously do not need years of experience with tarantulas to keep certain old world species. They are just spiders afterall. This may not work for everybody but with a little bit of logic and research you can keep every tarantula. Theraphosidae in general are very beginner-friendly spiders. Many Poecilotherias are even better then some other Orld World Arboreal species since most of them are very calm and defensive in terms of "backing off".

I have to admit that I don't know how many beginners don't consider being careful a basic requirement for this hobby. You should know that you are dealing with fast, venomous creatures. What's the difference between a Lasiodora, Brachypelma and a Poecilotheria besides that the first two aren't as fast and not ow/aboreal? Don't handle them, don't use your hand to pick up something in the enclosure, don't do something in the enclosure when you don't know where the spider is. What would happen if I would stick my finger in the enclosure of one of my Lasiodoras? It would charge forward and bite while I'm pretty sure that my Poecilotherias (with the exception of my P.ornata) would either do nothing or back off (althought I wouldn't wanna risk it). Does that mean, L.parahybanas are aggressive or not beginner-friendly? I wonder. ;)

There are so many threads and sheets online about transfering tarantulas from one enclosure to another too and it's not that much harder to safely transfer a Poecliotheria.

I'm always a little bit triggered when I read this here. Don't wanna lie. I think you guys have better insight then european keepers when it comes to other topics but orld world tarantulas are not something you can't keep as your first tarantula.
Interesting perspective. I get where you're coming from, but it's really for the best.

Getting a animal that can't potentially put you in the hospital and learning about it before getting one that can is just common sense. The last thing the hobby needs is inexperienced keepers getting bit and handling ows and giving the hobby a bad rep.

It does not take years. One year is enough imo. Get a classic beginner, then maybe a few months later, a Psalmopoeus. Raising that psalmo will get you used to speed and defensiveness. By the end of the year, youll probably have around a dozen and be comfortable with caring for many different lifestyles. Then go get a pokie.

It's all about being prepared and not having anymore basic questions.

I don't know if every Europeon is just imbued with common sense, but apparently many Americans aren't. I see morons putting spiders in their mouths, handling ows cuz they think it's cool, putting spiders on their faces for selfies, etc.

I would rather out my finger in any NW cage then any ow. Venom hurts a lot longer then big needles.
 

Andrea82

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In germany and other european countries people will tell you that there are no beginner tarantulas and you can start with everything.

I have to admit that I don't know how many beginners don't consider being careful a basic requirement for this hobby.

There are so many threads and sheets online about transfering tarantulas from one enclosure to another too and it's not that much harder to safely transfer a Poecliotheria.
.
There are just as much people advising against OW as beginner spiders as there are here. Not as vehemently as in the US, but if a Dutch guy comes online asking about a P.murinus he wants to keep as his first, he gets the same message as on here.
Not every new keeper is being careful, just look at the 'i did this or that amd now my spider is injured/lost/dead'-threads.
Yes, there are a lot of caresheets and videos on how to transfer a spider safely. Yet there are hundreds of new keepers here that thought they had to handle their spiders to transfer them.
Common sense, unfortunately, is not as common as it seems. And with the repercussions it can have to keeping arachnids if someone makes mistakes and it makes the headlines, I can understand why people on here get worried about people getting advanced Theraphosidae as first or second spiders. ;)
 

Ungoliant

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In germany and other european countries people will tell you that there are no beginner tarantulas and you can start with everything. Let's be serious here for one moment: Of course you can start with a Poecilotheria. You obviously do not need years of experience with tarantulas to keep certain old world species. They are just spiders afterall. This may not work for everybody but with a little bit of logic and research you can keep every tarantula.
We all make beginner’s errors when we are new, and it’s best to make those errors with hardy species that are slower, less defensive, and less venomous. Starting with the beginner-friendly species allows you to master the basics of care (especially rehousing) and develop good habits with species that are more forgiving.

Keep in mind that our members vary in age, maturity, tolerance for risk, and prior research. I think it’s irresponsible to encourage a minor, for example, to acquire a highly venomous, defensive tarantula. One should also consider who else lives in the home — people who might have to assist in caring for the tarantula, children who might open an enclosure while unsupervised, other pets that might be killed by the bite of an escaped OW tarantula.

Lastly, for prospective or brand new keepers, I think it is a good idea to verify that your interest in keeping tarantulas is long-term before getting into the hot species. If you decide you no longer want tarantulas in a month or two, it is a lot easier to responsibly rehome a Brachypelma albopilosum than a Heteroscodra maculata.

Ultimately, people will make their own decisions — sometimes against our advice — but at least the information is out there for the more thoughtful keeper to heed or discard at his own risk.


I have to admit that I don't know how many beginners don't consider being careful a basic requirement for this hobby. You should know that you are dealing with fast, venomous creatures.
If this forum and YouTube are any indication, you can’t assume that everyone will treat being careful as “a basic requirement for this hobby” or show appropriate respect for “fast, venomous creatures.”


There are so many threads and sheets online about transfering tarantulas from one enclosure to another too and it's not that much harder to safely transfer a Poecliotheria.
Doing research is commendable, but research is not always a substitute for firsthand experience. This is particularly true when it comes to rehousing a fast tarantula that can climb. Watching someone rehouse a Poecilotheria on YouTube and doing it yourself are two different things. If you’ve already rehoused an Avicularia or a Psalmopoeus, you’ll have a better idea of how things can go wrong (and what to do about it).

Just as an anecdote: I remember my first attempt at rehousing a tarantula, an Avicularia avicularia. I didn’t have a good plan, and before I knew it, she had bolted up my arm and around to my back. Fortunately, I was able to get the tarantula into her new enclosure, but I can only imagine making that mistake with a Pokie instead of an Avic.
 

TownesVanZandt

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In germany and other european countries people will tell you that there are no beginner tarantulas and you can start with everything.
I´ve never seen any serious European keeper making such claims. To be honest, I don´t think there´s a big difference in opinion between American and European keepers when it comes to this subject. The Americans seems to be more concerned about potential repercussions for the hobby as a whole e.g. a child being bitten by an OW tarantula with potent venom and tarantulas being banned as a result, but most Europeans will also point out that starting with an advanced OW species is not the brightest idea.
 

Aaron94

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I´ve never seen any serious European keeper making such claims. To be honest, I don´t think there´s a big difference in opinion between American and European keepers when it comes to this subject.
Ultimately I can only speak for germany but I know that many experienced and well known breeders there and in Switzerland make "such claims". And here is the mistake. What claims? I've never said that anyone claims, ow tarantulas are harmless and aren't different to nw tarantulas. Most people here decide between curious beginners and people who just want "the most aggressive and dangerous" spider. If an interested newbie here (who looks serious and responsible) wants to acquire an ow, most breeders will not discourage him/her from starting with an ow. But not because they need the money but because many think, that these "ows are dangerous"-claims are overrated.

I think it's irresponsible to encourage a minor, for example, to acquire a highly venomous, defensive tarantula. One should also consider who else lives in the home -- people who might have to assist in caring for the tarantula, children who might open an enclosure while unsupervised, other pets that might be killed by the bite of an escaped OW tarantula.
I think the major problem I have with the advices is the generalized demonization of ow tarantulas when people want to start with them. I think discouraging people who do have serious interest for a specific tarantula is as wrong as encouraging someone. I get it: It's hard to decide whether or not people want to have them cause they are fascinated by them or because they think it's "cooler" to have an ow tarantula. But is that the solution? We're not talking about deadly spiders here. The difference between nw and ow isn't dramatic big. If it's about reputation why misrepresent ow tarantulas and make them look like they are exclusive to people with an immense amount of knwledge when this is clearly not the case? Does that help the hobby?

I think you misunderstand where I'm coming from. I question the approach on how to handle the topic, that's all. I think you shoudln't generalize and be like "don't do it" but ask more questions and give tips and warnings instead. Shouldn't you try to be a bit more objective - especially in areas where people are even allowed to have guns?

Just kidding, that is a bad comparison.

It's the bite potency that makes them not beginner friendly. Well that's one reason, & here are all the reasons I know of:
1. Speed
2. Care requirements
3. Bite potency
4. Aggressiveness

All these things are considered when ranking Ts as beginner, intermediate, or advanced. I've never had an OW, but I'm pretty sure it's their speed and bite potency that mostly makes them more of an advanced species.
And that's good. You guys can give proper tips and explain why advanced species might not be ideal to start with for some people. But there are other categories aswell:

1. People who shouldn't keep tarantulas at all
2. People who should start with a slower and more forgiving species
3. People who inform themselves properly, are careful and responsible and are fascinated by a specific ow tarantula

By generalizing that much you scare and confuse people of the third category by making the picture of the aggresive and unpredicatble ow that will not only kill your pets but also your kids and will hospitalize you aswell.
-which is highly unlikely. If an ow escapes (which can be prevented) it will flee and hide somewhere. It won't attack you in the night, it won't mutate in some kind of deadly monster, it remains a little spider that want's to hide in a silent place. Things can go wrong, that's true and even experienced keepers could get bitten by an ow and that may be something completely different then the bite of a nw tarantula. But this is not forbidden knowledge. Most of us are adults. If you make someone aware of this and give them the freedom of pondering about the question if it's a wise decision to start with an ow, then I can't see a problem with that. I don't think it's the ultimate solution to tell everybody to start with a beginner species instead. Please don't misunderstand me! My point isn't that ow are as beginner-friendly as others. I think it's ok to say that they arent't beginner-friendly at all in some cases. They are appropriate/suitable for some beginners aswell given proper research and responsibility. That's it.

I know that you disagree with my opinion and I'm aware that your approach worked for you in the past. I accept that people disagree with me. But I also think it's good that I write my opinion down and explain you why I disagree with yours.
(And no: I didn't start with an ow tarantula. And yes: I'm aware of my bad english but I hope/guess that everything I wrote is still comfortable to read)
 
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Andrea82

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Ultimately I can only speak for germany but I know that many experienced and well known breeders there and in Switzerland make "such claims". And here is the mistake. What claims? I've never said that anyone claims, ow tarantulas are harmless and aren't different to nw tarantulas. Most people here decide between curious beginners and people who just want "the most aggressive and dangerous" spider. If an interested newbie here (who looks serious and responsible) wants to acquire an ow, most breeders will not discourage him/her from starting with an ow. But not because they need the money but because many think, that these "ows are dangerous"-claims are overrated.



I think the major problem I have with the advices is the generalized demonization of ow tarantulas when people want to start with them. I think discouraging people who do have serious interest for a specific tarantula is as wrong as encouraging someone. I get it: It's hard to decide whether or not people want to have them cause they are fascinated by them or because they think it's "cooler" to have an ow tarantula. But is that the solution? We're not talking about deadly spiders here. The difference between nw and ow isn't dramatic big. If it's about reputation why misrepresent ow tarantulas and make them look like they are exclusive to people with an immense amount of knwledge when this is clearly not the case? Does that help the hobby?

I think you misunderstand where I'm coming from. I question the approach on how to handle the topic, that's all. I think you shoudln't generalize and be like "don't do it" but ask more questions and give tips and warnings instead. Shouldn't you try to be a bit more objective - especially in areas where people are even allowed to have guns?

Just kidding, that is a bad comparison.



And that's good. You guys can give proper tips and explain why advanced species might not be ideal to start with for some people. But there are other categories aswell:

1. People who shouldn't keep tarantulas at all
2. People who should start with a slower and more forgiving species
3. People who inform themselves properly, are careful and responsible and are fascinated by a specific ow tarantula

By generalizing that much you scare and confuse people of the third category by making the picture of the aggresive and unpredicatble ow that will not only kill your pets but also your kids and will hospitalize you aswell.
-which is highly unlikely. If an ow escapes (which can be prevented) it will flee and hide somewhere. It won't attack you in the night, it won't mutate in some kind of deadly monster, it remains a little spider that want's to hide in a silent place. Things can go wrong, that's true and even experienced keepers could get bitten by an ow and that may be something completely different then the bite of a nw tarantula. But this is not forbidden knowledge. Most of us are adults. If you make someone aware of this and give them the freedom of pondering about the question if it's a wise decision to start with an ow, then I can't see a problem with that. I don't think it's the ultimate solution to tell everybody to start with a beginner species instead. Please don't misunderstand me! My point isn't that ow are as beginner-friendly as others. I think it's ok to say that they arent't beginner-friendly at all in some cases. They are appropriate/suitable for some beginners aswell given proper research and responsibility. That's it.

I know that you disagree with my opinion and I'm aware that your approach worked for you in the past. I accept that people disagree with me. But I also think it's good that I write my opinion down and explain you why I disagree with yours.
(And no: I didn't start with an ow tarantula. And yes: I'm aware of my bad english but I hope/guess that everything I wrote is still comfortable to read)
Perfectly comfortable :)

I think the response varies according to how the poster makes the inquiry. OP here asks if the P.fasciata is a good second because it is cheap. I can't speak for others, but getting a spider because it is cheap indicates to me that there isn't a lot of research or plan-ahead thinking done here, it sounds more like a 'hey, nice spider oh look it is cheap, let's take it home with me' issue. Impulsive.

If someone comes on here and asks opinion about the best starter OW since he has researched this and that species, and can show he (or she, of course) has been preparing himself, I don't mind as much.
But if one posts something along the lines of
'yo! I got meh a superduper cool spoder, it is bright orange and hates me lulz omg you guis',
Well...let's just say that feels wrong to me ;)
 

USS Arachnid

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Again, repeating what I said earlier. I'm saying it's cheap due to the fact I have a budget and want a juvenile. I don't let costs dictate my purchase, if I did I wouldn't even have posted this thread.
 

Andrea82

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Again, repeating what I said earlier. I'm saying it's cheap due to the fact I have a budget and want a juvenile. I don't let costs dictate my purchase, if I did I wouldn't even have posted this thread.
I wasn't trying to target you again really. Just explaining my reaction to your first post. ;)
I think if you have a budget, and if the lps-price of that P.fasciata fits in it, you can afford a juvenile of most other species available. Pokies aren't cheap,and LPS aren't either. :)
 

Ungoliant

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I think the major problem I have with the advices is the generalized demonization of ow tarantulas when people want to start with them. . . . Shouldn't you try to be a bit more objective
I don’t see too many people “demonizing” OW tarantulas. I do see people explaining (with varying degrees of tact) that the increased potency of their venom, their speed, and their defensiveness make them unsuitable as first tarantulas, especially when there are other options that are readily available.

The reasons are objective, even if you ultimately disagree with the conclusion.


especially in areas where people are even allowed to have guns?
Well, if we want to make that comparison, if I were introducing someone to shooting, I would start with a basic .22, not a machine gun.
 

Swoop

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Shouldn't you try to be a bit more objective - especially in areas where people are even allowed to have guns?

Just kidding, that is a bad comparison.
:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

You're right about one thing, that's a bad comparison. You're suggesting we should be less cautious with dangerous things because you think we're not cautious enough with other dangerous things? I get it, you're in Germany, you've probably never fired or even held a gun so don't take this as a personal attack. I've been shooting and collecting guns for 8 years and choosing a 'beginner tarantula' is way more important than choosing a 'beginner gun.' Here's why.

An 8 year old can be taught to safely handle what some might call an 'assault rifle.' Don't point it at people, take the ammo out when you're done. Leave it in a closet for ten years if you want, it might rust but it won't hurt anything except its inanimate self. Set it down, it stays. Your dog chews on it, meh, cosmetic damage. Estimates of the number of gun owners in the US are in the tens of millions, yet there are only about 800 accidental gun deaths a year. You learn how to use one gun safely and all the rest are almost exactly the same.

What about an OW arboreal T? Well you've got to feed it, got to give it water, sometimes you have to re-house it, there's no way to 'unload' one, it can move and run and climb on its own, and if your dog chews on it at least one of your pets will probably end up dead. Less potentially dangerous to humans maybe, but the likelihood of someone or something being injured is much greater because T's can only be 'encouraged' in ways that guns can be controlled.

If you're still not convinced, go to a gun forum and ask how many people have accidentally shot someone or themselves or been shot accidentally, ever, under any circumstances. Out of ten thousand members, you'll get a relative few. Probably a couple dozen. I think there's been two gun-related injuries at my local range in 8 years, and the only fatality was due to a construction accident. And, this even took me by surprise when I realized it, about one in three groups who visit have someone who's never shot a gun before.

T's though? There is literally an entire sub-forum for people who have firsthand experience being injured by their spiders. 115 threads in Bite Reports, many of which have multiple people reporting being bitten. Some people report being bitten multiple times by the same Pokie. People don't generally have qualified supervision when buying, housing and handling spiders. Therefore, since they're learning by themselves and there's significant potential for injury, people need to be much more cautious when considering a new spider than a gun.

Sorry for the essay. My two hobbies in the same thread, couldn't help myself.
 

Whitelightning777

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The P fascitia may be considered by some to be more defensive, skittish, etc then some others.

Typically, the P regalis is considered one of the best starter pokies. The other one that was my first is P Striata.

She is wonderful!! I got her as a 1" sling. Currently, she's now 2"in size & the calmest most mentally stable spider I've got.

Today, I pulled out a molt, cleaned up a web festooned with cricket remains, cleaned off the glass and cleaned out the waterdish.

After being gently prodded, she slowly walked down and hid in the corner by the waterdish.

BUT !!

I always do that inside of the bathtub with drain plugged, inside of a tote with .5" of cold water. I use a chunk of styrofoam in the middle and set the enclosure upon it.

I've had ZERO escape attempts or any other type of misbehavior. I also work real slow.

Currently mine is housed in a Terra Blue professional enclosure 4x4x8 tall in size. This opens from the top and you only have to open it the width of whatever you're feeding it, like just a slit.

Also, my first OW was M balfouri, a terrestrial. Frankly that might be a better choice since the main behavior is fleeing down the burrow, never up or around and round.

FWIW, my striata is 10x calmer then my versicolor!!

The speed and potential is staggering. She effortlessly dominates the cage & can nuke any cricket up to her size no matter where it is.

Also, she only eats crickets and small roaches, never meal worms within a shot glass (total failure)

Does having a pokie as a 2nd violate the "ladder" system? Yes, but stranger things have happened!!

P striata Patricia 1st hour2.jpg P striatta privacy screen Patricia.jpg Patricia vs Trouble 2.jpg

The last 2 are of my M balfouri, just saying.

Start with a 4x4x4 juvenile terrestrial cage kit from Jamie's. Arrange it in a pleasing manner with a starter burrow in one corner (VERY important)

Carefully unpack and get spider into enclosure within bathtub as mentioned previously.

You literally can't screw that up. Drop feeders directly down into one of the many multiple burrows that will come into existence.

Here's what mine looks like as a sling and currently as a juvenile, just saying.

The OP's first was a terrestrial.


M balfouri Maxine 2nd day.jpg

M balfouri Maxine new home chilling.jpg
 

Whitelightning777

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Here's my little angel chilling in the corner.

She obediently places ALL boluses within a web which she usually has there. I just cleaned it out and she just molted.

P straita Patricia angel 2.jpg P straita Patricia angel 3.jpg P striata Patricia angel 1.jpg

You can't argue with that!! The one time I think I saw her nail a cricket on the opposite side of the cage I'm not sure if she ran around and got it or if she just went airborne and got it.

After the briefest flash of movement, both vanished!!
 

Vinny2915

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I'm not saying you're wrong, but the part about minors having them being a bad idea is a little bit of a generalization. I have a lot of old world tarantulas (I'm not going to mention here but they are in my profile) and have never been bitten. I don't allow myself to get into "hair situations. Containers are never opened (crickets and super worms are out through air holes and water dishes are filled with a water filled syringe through the air holes as well as instead of spraying I just overfill the dish), rehousing are done in the bathtub and catch cup with cardboard (I use what I call the "Tom Moran method), and never, ever handle my tarantulas. I have never once had an issue with any of them. Though, back on topic I don't think P.fasciata is all that bad, it isn't good for a second tarantula but at the same time it isn't crazy bad. P.regalis would be better in my opinion, if you really want a pokie. All one has to understand is the danger involved if you chose to be incompetent or sidetracked during rehousing or feedings (I don't know when else you could be bitten).

Keep in mind that our members vary in age, maturity, tolerance for risk, and prior research. I think it's irresponsible to encourage a minor, for example, to acquire a highly venomous, defensive tarantula.
The reply above is meant for this. I just didn't understand how to quote text. Got it now.
 
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Ungoliant

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Keep in mind that our members vary in age, maturity, tolerance for risk, and prior research. I think it's irresponsible to encourage a minor, for example, to acquire a highly venomous, defensive tarantula.
I'm not saying you're wrong, but the part about minors having them being a bad idea is a little bit of a generalization. I have a lot of old world tarantulas (I'm not going to mention here but they are in my profile) and have never been bitten.
What I am saying is not that no minor is capable of responsibly keeping an Old World tarantula but that, without knowing the person or his circumstances, my default response would be not to recommend OW species to minors, especially ones who are beginners. (The reason I used minors as an example was to highlight the fact that you don’t even necessarily know the age of the person posting. It could be a 12-year-old.)

I have the same policy for adults. There are always exceptions, but in general, if a new member comes to the forum as a beginner inquiring about OW tarantulas, I would discourage that. I am not going to assume that a random newbie is particularly careful, a quick study, or doesn’t have children or pets that could be harmed by an unexpected encounter with a Pokie.)

Personally, I am not comfortable offering blanket assurances that “you’ll be fine if you do your research” (the post to which I was replying) to people I don’t know. Because I really don’t know for that particular person, so I’d rather err on the side of caution.

I also operate under the assumption that most people want honest information in order to make informed decisions. If I were a novice keeper wanting to buy a Pokie, I’d hope someone would explain why that’s not a great idea and offer better alternatives.
 
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