Pipa pipa... Unlucky or do I just suck?

[Scythemantis]

Pipa or "Surinam frogs" are one of my favorite organisms, I've done all the research you can do throughout my life and I've tried to keep three of them over the past twenty years, the most recent just last month.... None of which lived more than a few weeks for me. Others I've spoken to have no trouble with the species and I have no trouble with any other animals myself. The first died suddenly with no external signs while the second and third developed fungus, and the recommended treatments didn't save them. Does anyone else have experience with them and any advice?

 

[Scythemantis]

I should mention it can't be an issue of water quality or climate; each one I had several years apart in different states and homes. First two I tried "bare bones" enclosures with no substrate but for the third I tried a naturalistic one with soft sand, hides, live plants and even blackwater which I was told was their wild conditions *and good for preventing fungus*

 

[l4nsky]

Few questions here. To the best of your knowledge, were they wild caught or captive bred? Also, any specifics you can give on the water quality (pH, hardness, RO or tap etc)?

Thanks,
--Matt

 

[Scythemantis]

I can't remember where I bought the first two from because it was so long ago but the third was from snakes after sunset, and that may be wild caught. I've since read that a few people tried breeding them, and were successful, but didn't have enough buyers to keep going.

For the most recent one I used spring water with aquasafe conditioner as per its directions. This was the one with natural plants and leaves, which I let acclimate for weeks with a sponge filter before adding the frog.

When my second one developed fungus I made a separate bath with store-bought antifungal for aquatic pets, but it kept progressing. For this one, I followed the salt bath method used for axolotls and clawed frogs, since I could find no documentation on treating fungus in pipa specifically.

Also, my first one only accepted floating pellets, my second one only wanted to eat live earthworms, and my third ignored almost everything but feeder minnows, which I suspect was the source of the fungus, but after four days of salt bath all visible fungus disappeared. She swam and seemed vibrant on night four, then was dead the following morning.

 

[Feral]

Also, which method did you use to cycle the tank? And what were the readings on ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate?

 

[Polenth]

In addition to the other questions, what was the size of the tank, how often did you do water changes and how much water did you change each time?

 

[Scythemantis]

30 gallons of water, and didn't have her long enough to do the recommended water change for that volume with one frog in a filtered planted tank...

I also have no idea how to actually measure water hardness, but my axolotls, leeches, and other sensitive aquatics are always healthy.

 

[Feral]

Also, which method did you use to cycle the tank? And what were the readings on ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate?

And the above questions?

 

[Scythemantis]

I thought those questions were all covered by my description of the tank in the very first post. A tank with an established microbiome and growing plant life not only doesn't need a water change or cycling within the short time frame I had her, but doing so would have for most amphibians been stress-inducing and facilitated more fungal growth.

The "usual" setup people have for this species is nothing but a bare glass tank with dechlorinated tap water, changed maybe monthly if that. I guess I thought I had it "in the bag" if I was putting more effort than that into the environment, which indeed other people have said is much better for them.

So I've recreated both methods people use to keep this frog alive for years at a time, and both were killed quickly by fungus even with immediate treatment. I guess what I cannot find information on is how prone they are to this and how commonly treatment fails when they do develop it. I also still cannot find information on whether mine were wild caught nor can I find a known captive breeder still operating...

 

[Feral]

And there it is.

An established microbiome of what? Every aquatic environment needs to be properly cycled. (And cycled before any creatures are put in, because cycling is damaging to all creatures, though sometimes some of the hardiest ones can survive the damage.)

I don't think you're understanding what the nitrogen cycle is. Unless you added an ammonia source in sufficient quantity for sufficient time to complete the nitrogen cycle (i.e. to produce enough beneficial bacteria to allow conversion of the present toxic ammonia to toxic nitrite then to less toxic nitrate, which nitrate is then removed via water change) and monitored the readings throughout the cycle so you'd know how much ammonia to add when and know when the cycle is fully complete, then no traditional nitrogen cycle had happened. And if you had been doing an untraditional method, like either a "silent cycle" method with a very large quantity of well-established and actively growing plants of certain specific types, or a bacteria seeding method, you still should have been monitoring the values for ammonia, nitrate, nitrite. So either way, you should know, and therefore be able to give, the test values for the ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate.

It sounds like your tank wasn't cycled.

I'm sorry about your loss, but there's your reason. The tank wasn't properly cycled, and the toad died from an ammonia spike. (Either directly as ammonia toxicity or indirectly through secondary infection made possible because of the ammonia toxicity.) I'm not sure what you mean by "fungus"... are you referring to an infection of columnaris bacteria?... or Chrytid or Saprolegnia and Achyla infections? All of those typically colonize on a primary wound, like ammonia burn. Or are you mistaking "fungus" for what is the toad's overproduction of mucous to try to protect itself against ammonia? Either way, a tank that wasn't properly cycled is your culprit. You can read up on the Nitrogen Cycle, the fishless cycling method, seeding with bacteria from established systems or silent cycling, and monitoring nitrogen levels with a test kit (the API Masterkit is best) so this never happens again.

 

[Polenth]

I thought those questions were all covered by my description of the tank in the very first post. A tank with an established microbiome and growing plant life not only doesn't need a water change or cycling within the short time frame I had her, but doing so would have for most amphibians been stress-inducing and facilitated more fungal growth.

The "usual" setup people have for this species is nothing but a bare glass tank with dechlorinated tap water, changed maybe monthly if that. I guess I thought I had it "in the bag" if I was putting more effort than that into the environment, which indeed other people have said is much better for them.

A small water change once a month would be fine with a cycled filter and an animal with a low bioload. The issue does sound like the filter wasn't cycled. Even if you seeded it from another tank, it'd need some ammonia to feed on during the empty weeks.

Some animals die when they're in a tank during a cycle. Some don't. What happened to your other animals doesn't really relate to how sensitive the frogs may be to cycling.

If a tank does end up cycling with an animal in it, you really need to do water changes. Water changes are less stressful than sitting in ammonia/nitrite. It's not ideal, but once you're in that situation, you don't have many options.

 

[Scythemantis]

Sorry but I just thought these things were enough of a no-brainer that I shouldn't have to be grilled about them, I think I more than sufficiently explained how hardy the species is for other keepers without nearly the attention and work I was putting into it, and that I used the same methods that have been 100% successful for my other aquatic amphibians for literally decades, which I feel rules out most of your evaluation already.

For future reference, saying "and there it is" feels hurtful to most people. It gives an impression of you waiting around for validation that someone is as ignorant as you immediately suspected they were. I only wanted to hear from people who've actually kept the species and thought that was implicit enough, but in the end it probably doesn't matter since I didn't intend to ever try again.

 

[Feral]

I wasn't trying to offend. If I did, then I apologize.

I was trying only to be factual, and actually in a very civil way, I think. Either way, I am not feeling well, am crabby, and I definitely have strong feelings about the animals in this particular situation... So I had to work extra hard to make the post not accusatory, that was my intention. I'm here for the animals, but also not trying to be inflammatory. Aside from everything else, this situation is definitely due to an uncycled tank. No question. You don't want me to be honest with my feelings right now, so let me stick to the facts:

* Sometimes care sheets or husbandry sources don't explicitly say to use a properly cycled aquarium, or explain what cycling means, because that is the very foundation of all aquatics, the most basic thing that all aquatic creatures should have regardless of species, and it can sometimes be treated like a given or unspoken rule. There is also, sadly, still some straight up wrong/outdated information out there. (Much like with all the tarantula misinformation out there.)
* All amphibians are very sensitive to environmental pollutants, and for aquatic amphibians this means their water quality.
* Aquatic creatures secret nitrogenous waste into the water in the form of ammonia. Ammonia is also produced by the decomposing of uneaten food particles. Ammonia is toxic to aquatic life.
* When ammonia is present, a type of nitrifying bacteria grows to convert the ammonia to nitrite, but nitrite is also toxic. Another type of nitrifying bacteria grows to convert the nitrite to nitrate, which is less toxic.
* Regular partial water changes are performed to remove some nitrate and dilute the rest. Nitrate should always stay under 40ppm for any creature, but it should probably stay under 20ppm for more sensitive creatures, like amphibians or "scaleless" fish.
* Once properly cycled, you will register readable nitrate levels but there should be no more than 0ppm of either ammonia or nitrite. Any registrable amount of either compound is harmful to aquatic life, possibly fatal. (Dealing with any detectable levels of ammonia and/or nitrite while a creature is present is a whole other long thing, and involves a whole lot of large volume water changes for weeks on end, among other things, and is not always successful.)
* Traditional cycles can take six weeks or more to establish. There are ways to do it quicker, but the how of the methods to do that's a another whole other long thing.
* In cycled systems, water change frequency and water change volume should be based on nitrate buildup readings. (Not just the standard "monthly" water change you sometimes hear, as for some situations the "recommended" monthly WC could well be too late, too toxic and possibly deadly.) There are many variables and each system is different, so nitrate test results are the only reliable deciding factor for determining water change frequency and volume in healthy, cycled, established systems.
* The beneficial bacteria will colonize any surface within an aquatic system, but they populate areas with high oxygenation, like the filter media, in especially high numbers. (Their second most populated place is the substrate.) Filters should be sized to be appropriate for both the size of the aquarium and the size of the bioload. Filters must include both mechanical and biological filter action. Chemical filtration is recommended for novices and beginners, optional for intermediate to advanced.
* Measures must be taken to preserve the beneficial bacteria colony once it's established, especially in the filter media. Tap water with chlorine and/or chloramine will kill them, drying out will kill them, not having enough food (nitrogen) will kill them, changing out too much of the filter material will kill them (i.e. cartridge system), cleaning too much substrate/decor/surfaces will kill them, etc. If too many die, the cycle can't function properly and dangerous nitrogen spikes will ensue.
* Near all illnesses in captive aquatic creatures are caused by poor water quality. (Most often nitrogen toxicity, less commonly pH or hardness.) Occasionally there is some other stressor, like incorrect parameters for temperature or malfunctioning equipment or insufficient cover or intertank aggression or insufficient group size or introduction of some external toxin or pre-existing parasites or whatever. But it's always some stressor that weakens their body system and lets an illness take hold, and that stressor is nearly always water poor quality.
* Your pipas were probably wild-caught/imported and therefore definitely super stressed from everything that goes along with that traumatic process (and also possibly infected with internal parasites, to boot). This made them even less resilient when confronted with the additional stressors of another new environment and, more damaging, the resultant ammonia toxicity. Frogs also have a heavy bioload (i.e. they put a lot of nitrogen into the system through waste excretion and messy eating/food waste), resulting in a quick buildup of toxic badness.
* Other aquatic members of the Pipidae family (like African dwarf frogs and African clawed frogs) and all other aquatic amphibians (including axolotls) are sensitive to nitrogen, though those are commonly captive-bred and therefore inherently sturdier than a wild-caught specimen, as your pipa toads were.
* Some specimens and/or species of aquatic creatures are sturdier than others and may survive the cycling process, but cycling is at least temporarily damaging to all creatures and shortens their lifespan, if not is permanently damaging or even fatal to them.
* Therefore, all aquatic creatures need to have their tank properly and completely cycled before they're introduced into the tank.
*Some animals can sometimes adapt, to a degree and over time, to toxic conditions and bad water quality. This doesn't mean those conditions are acceptable in any way, or that they're not suffering for it and/or being stunted and/or incurring temporary/permanent damage and/or having shortened lifespans because of the poor conditions.
(Also, any adjustments to bad water quality need to be corrected gradually over time because any sudden changes, even if they're ultimately for the better, can be traumatic to their already compromised systems.)
* The nitrogen cycle can be successfully completed before livestock introduction using a few different methods, but every method requires that levels of ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate must be measured throughout the cycling process.
* pH should also be routinely tested, because besides the pH level affecting the creatures directly, the pH can actually affect the toxicity of ammonia and/or heavy nitrate buildup can affect the pH level.
* After cycling, levels should also be monitored in healthy systems at regular intervals, and tested immediately anytime there is any kind of problem or illness.
* A liquid test kit is most accurate, like the API Masterkit. This kit also comes with standard and high pH testing. gH and kH can be purchased separately, if needed. (Knowing what your source water tests at, what those values are and how they differ from how water in your particular aquarium settles, and understanding how nitrogen, pH, and hardness interact will inform your decision to buy gH/kH testing kits.)

Those are the facts. Since you currently have aquatic creatures (the axolotl and any others), please get a test kit and use it regularly (and also immediately if you see any problems) and make sure neither the ammonia nor the nitrite levels ever rise above 0ppm, and nitrate is never over 40ppm. (But <20ppm is better, <10ppm is best!) If you already have toxic conditions, please correct them gradually over time with very frequent but small volume (~10% q24h) water changes until parameters are within acceptable levels. Please be aware that your axolotl may be prone to future problems and/or shortened lifespan due to cycling exposure. And please research the nitrogen cycle, various methods for doing it and maintaining it, and completely and properly cycle any future aquariums before stocking. I'm sorry about what happened with your pipa toads but happy that you'll be better informed in the future. Good luck!

 

[AzJohn]

Wild caught or captive bred?

 

[Galapoheros]

Years ago I remember reading these can live in pretty heavily polluted water, then I just read they need clean water. Either way, obviously best to use clean water. I had a couple of them and they lasted a long time. In the spring and summer, I put them in a 55 gallon barrel outside that caught rain hoping they would breed, they seemed to love it in there, there were dead leaves in there, pretty mucky but they seemed to like it. They can see better than I thought, they'd go under if I got near. They are pretty temp sensitive, you have to keep them on the warm side but I don't have a specific temp for you.