Phrynus sp Nicaragua being maesi?

[Sarkhan42]

that's somehow a strange question... if they reproduce succesfully and if the offspring F1, F2... is fertil, they are per definition one species.

That is of course, using the classical biological species concept I feel particularly the work of De Queiroz on a modern unified species concept would be preferable at this point given what we now know- viable hybridization in different chromosomal counts, ring species, etc.

This is not at all intended to spark argument, just for interesting discussion!

For those who may not be familiar but are interested in the topic: https://academic.oup.com/sysbio/article/56/6/879/1653163

 

[mantisfan101]

Well im checking species today. I have 3 females with eggs that I bred, and one batch is hatching soon, as postembryos are visible, so Ill get back to you on that

How did you get yours to drop eggs? I've been waiting for one female to lay eggs for a few months now, with no sign of development

 

[ThemantismanofPA]

How did you get yours to drop eggs? I've been waiting for one female to lay eggs for a few months now, with no sign of development

So I mated mine on cork bark, then kept her on cork bark under pretty much direct heat with 80% humidity until she dropped eggs, in which case i removed her from direct heat (being kept at about 70 currently) and humidity lowered to 60%. She mated in december, eggs laid on march 15, postembryos on april 15th, should hatch any day now

 

[Banshee05]

That is of course, using the classical biological species concept I feel particularly the work of De Queiroz on a modern unified species concept would be preferable at this point given what we now know- viable hybridization in different chromosomal counts, ring species, etc.

This is not at all intended to spark argument, just for interesting discussion!

For those who may not be familiar but are interested in the topic: https://academic.oup.com/sysbio/article/56/6/879/1653163

sure, completely agree. There are more than 100 different definitions out there... I am not in the position to discuss about its fundamental rules and if they are reliable or not, BUT..
what I intend to say here, and that's maybe the point for hobbiest while breeding a species, keeping one species by one and do not mix them up. Never! Hybrids may work 1-2-3 generations but then it can end, also it can occur that you mate a hybrid with a 'normal' one and it does not work anymore etc.
So keeping one population for itself, makes always sense for breeding purposes.

 

[ThemantismanofPA]

Update: They hatched!!!

 

[wizentrop]

Ha, that's funny - My P. "whitei" from Honduras which are very similar to this one in general appearance but are very likely a different species also hatched today! Good timing.
Edit: It's also a good opportunity to show mine.

 

[mantisfan101]

Update: They hatched!!! View attachment 385394

Nice! I have still yet to get mine to drop an eggsac...

 

[ThemantismanofPA]

Nice! I have still yet to get mine to drop an eggsac...

I have 2 more females which I have been waiting on for months to drop the eggsac, I really dont know how i got the first to work.. Gonna have to start experimenting with enclosures and such.

Also, did some work yesterday on my male, I am pretty confident he is whitei Now all i have to do is wait for the babies to disperse and ID the mother!

 

[Banshee05]

Ha, that's funny - My P. "whitei" from Honduras which are very similar to this one in general appearance but are very likely a different species also hatched today! Good timing.
Edit: It's also a good opportunity to show mine.
View attachment 385413

great Gil

 

[ThemantismanofPA]

Babies have molted off as of last night, looking at around 30 as of now, will get the final count later today. Also should be able to see if the female is whitei or maesi tonight, so I'll keep you all informed

 

[ThemantismanofPA]

the babies are not hybrids! Missed a few spines when I ID'd the male, went back last night with a 40x lens and found out he and my female were in fact maesi.

 

[Banshee05]

the babies are not hybrids! Missed a few spines when I ID'd the male, went back last night with a 40x lens and found out he and my female were in fact maesi.

I would not count the spines, or its ratio...this is nearly senseless in that close related species. In fact nearly all phrynids have the same spine-formula and ratios...even if they are different. This old-fashioned tools do not work nowadays!

 

[ThemantismanofPA]

I would not count the spines, or its ratio...this is nearly senseless in that close related species. In fact nearly all phrynids have the same spine-formula and ratios...even if they are different. This old-fashioned tools do not work nowadays!

Arghhhh! Thanks for letting me know, is there any better way for me to check?