Phrynus sp Nicaragua being maesi?

mantisfan101

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I acquired 3 phrynus sp Nicaragua a while ago at an expo and unfortunately one recently died on me. However, I decided to pop open this one's gonopods to check and I saw this. It's not the best photo since I don't have any proper microscopes or anything, but I'm fairly sure this is maesi? Can anyone else chime in on this?
IMG_3857.jpg
 

Sarkhan42

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I know we've already talked via PM but for the sake of adding to the conversation- I really do believe this is maesi from your photos. Of course it'd be best to also have some of the blush eyed/smooth palp Phrynus(true whitei maybe?) to compare to, just to be absolutely positive.

I'm curious what this means for Identifying the males by eye however. It's been clearly established for me that there's significant dimorphism from male to female in these species, but how much do the males differ from a glance at adulthood? We may need to ensure species via molts before doing any breeding from Nicaraguan stock.
 
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ThemantismanofPA

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It's been clearly established for me that there's significant dimorphism from male to female in these species, but how much do the males differ from a glance at adulthood? We may need to ensure species via molts before doing any breeding from Nicaraguan stock.
😓 already had 3 females bred before the news broke about the maesi... basedon these results, might have to freeze the babies or at least wait for molts and stuff to confirm sp :arghh:
 

Sarkhan42

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😓 already had 3 females bred before the news broke about the maesi... basedon these results, might have to freeze the babies or at least wait for molts and stuff to confirm sp :arghh:
Well I just got good news for you- at least for the red eye variant it looks like the males are likely to keep the eye spots even at maturity, and look distinctly different than the big maesi males.
 
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Sarkhan42

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do the maesi still get the eyespots that the whitei sometimes have?
As far as I’m aware, the eye spots are attributed to just whitei, but there’s also quite a bit of variation within them as well. And apparently true whitei don’t even necessarily have to have them, or they can be greatly reduced, based on locality. You can see a pretty distinct difference between the maesi and “whitei” regardless though, imo, I just believed it to be a species variation at first.
 

Edan bandoot

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As far as I’m aware, the eye spots are attributed to just whitei, but there’s also quite a bit of variation within them as well. And apparently true whitei don’t even necessarily have to have them, or they can be greatly reduced, based on locality. You can see a pretty distinct difference between the maesi and “whitei” regardless though, imo, I just believed it to be a species variation at first.
is there a gallery somewhere where i can look at different localities of whitei and maesi
 

Sarkhan42

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is there a gallery somewhere where i can look at different localities of whitei and maesi
There's not really a concise place to view everything, its been piecing things together from different sources on different platforms for the most part for me... and as this thread has shown there's ALWAYS new info popping up. I feel like I'm constantly learning with these alien animals.

edit: iNaturalist isn't terrible for a little bit of variety at least for whitei I suppose
 

Sarkhan42

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In trying to acquire the different varieties of "whitei" I found out the white eye form I'll be receiving is actually coming from Honduras. I went ahead and referenced the iNaturalist localities and there actually does seem to be somewhat of a north/south split between red eye and white eye, with potentially a little overlap. It's not a massive sample size but it is interesting to note at least.
 

Sarkhan42

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and you rely on the pictures/web ID of phrynids on that plattform? :)
I’m certainly not saying iNaturalist is perfect in any sense for identification, but like I said to my knowledge this “eye blush” is characteristic to whitei so I felt in this case that could at least be acceptable. Is this incorrect? Forgive my ignorance if so, this is just what I gathered from the literature I’ve read through.
 

dragonfire1577

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I'd say inaturalist is a perfectly good tool for making observations like this. The IDs are far flung from any sort of keying or genetic analysis but for observing something like regional distribution of amblypygids with red vs white eye spots it's a nifty tool. The locations may not be exact but should be largely accurate, so seeing a north/south distribution at least lets us know there is some regional variation in what at a glance looks to be the same species. It would be interesting for more research to be done on the different populations since they show superficially different phenotypes.
 

Banshee05

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I’m certainly not saying iNaturalist is perfect in any sense for identification, but like I said to my knowledge this “eye blush” is characteristic to whitei so I felt in this case that could at least be acceptable. Is this incorrect? Forgive my ignorance if so, this is just what I gathered from the literature I’ve read through.
no worry about, just wanted to point that major bias out :)
it must not be correct, some whitei's does show this spot, some not, contrarly, some other phrynids does also slightly have it. For me, this is no ID character.
 

Sarkhan42

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no worry about, just wanted to point that major bias out :)
it must not be correct, some whitei's does show this spot, some not, contrarly, some other phrynids does also slightly have it. For me, this is no ID character.
Which other species have eye spots that you know of? I'd definitely agree color/markings like this usually aren't the greatest character (example how inconsistent it is for people to try to use leg banding to identify medius vs diadema) I was just attempting to follow a logic tree of even if not all whitei have it, if no other species do then those that do have it could be assumed whitei. This is of course, with the understanding of working with the current literature that is quite dated. There certainly needs to be new attention to the group with modern techniques, though I'm sure you're already on top of that :) Hopefully that explains my reasoning a little clearer.

and thank you for chiming in, its always a pleasure to learn from the experts!
 

Banshee05

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Which other species have eye spots that you know of? I'd definitely agree color/markings like this usually aren't the greatest character (example how inconsistent it is for people to try to use leg banding to identify medius vs diadema) I was just attempting to follow a logic tree of even if not all whitei have it, if no other species do then those that do have it could be assumed whitei. This is of course, with the understanding of working with the current literature that is quite dated. There certainly needs to be new attention to the group with modern techniques, though I'm sure you're already on top of that :) Hopefully that explains my reasoning a little clearer.

and thank you for chiming in, its always a pleasure to learn from the experts!
Many species can show it in various life stages or after molting events. It also often appears in alcohol preserved specimen that the eye-spot arise, while it was not visible during life. There is no general rule.
I cannot say what you all have, I can just tell you, that my specimen I got are maesi. There were several imports and maybe different localities within one import, and differences between EU and USA, etc. without adult specimen of both sexes in my hand, I will not bet.

And yes, there are several attemps to solve the species status and even genus status of phrynids. The 'old-fashion' and conservative characters used for species delimination, does nto work nowadays with the plenty of new species described and with modern tools.
 

Edan bandoot

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Many species can show it in various life stages or after molting events. It also often appears in alcohol preserved specimen that the eye-spot arise, while it was not visible during life. There is no general rule.
I cannot say what you all have, I can just tell you, that my specimen I got are maesi. There were several imports and maybe different localities within one import, and differences between EU and USA, etc. without adult specimen of both sexes in my hand, I will not bet.

And yes, there are several attemps to solve the species status and even genus status of phrynids. The 'old-fashion' and conservative characters used for species delimination, does nto work nowadays with the plenty of new species described and with modern tools.
can whitei and maesi reproduce together or are their genitals too different?
it would suck to accidently get a crossbreed sold as a CB whitei
 

Banshee05

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that's somehow a strange question... if they reproduce succesfully and if the offspring F1, F2... is fertil, they are per definition one species.
 

Banshee05

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ps. nobody knows what you have. As usual big sellers, breeders... sell under a name, even if they have no clue about systematics and their true ID.
It is always the same. One would say that this is on purpose...
 

ThemantismanofPA

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that's somehow a strange question... if they reproduce succesfully and if the offspring F1, F2... is fertil, they are per definition one species.
Well im checking species today. I have 3 females with eggs that I bred, and one batch is hatching soon, as postembryos are visible, so Ill get back to you on that :)
 
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