Phrynomantis microps update

[Matttoadman]

In June I acquired 6 Phrynomantis microps. I was suppose to get the larger species bifasciatus but they misidentified them and its seldom worth it to return and get what you want through the mail. There is a little hobby research out there and it says P. Bifasciatus will accept other invert food besides ants and termites. However there is zero hobby info on microps. I have now discovered that they only eat ants and termites. I thought they were eating newborn roach nymphs but later found they were just escaping. Pinhead crickets, tiny isopods nothing. Now the delimna. Feeding wild caught termites and ants has its risks. Starvation however is 100% fatal. Since they are wild caught, they are not parasite free to begin with. My goal is too get ant colonies going to use as feeders. This will probably not be as fast as I would like. Perhaps they won't live to see the colonies big enough for use. But I must try. So my disclaimers. I do not recommend purchasing this species unless you raise ants. I don't recommend feeding from field collected prey. I am an exterminator who lives in the country and use no pesticides at my house.
Now for replies, please let's not waste bandwidth by trolling or restating the obvious, dislikes blah blah. Useful info ;Has anyone used ants as feeders? Are there any examples of breeding we picky feeders and the fb offspring losing the pickiness? They love ants and termites.

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1120926941384305

 

[schmiggle]

There is a lot of specific ant care information out there; however, what I will say is that termites, though of course horribly damaging if they escape, are very convenient for the following reason: they produce thousands of secondary reproductives in their colony that can eventually become primary reproductives. What this means is that if you collect a fairly large number of termites (say, 500-1,000), as soon as they realize that there are no reproductives, eventually, it is likely that two of them will become the new colonial king and queen and establish a self-sustaining colony. In addition, of course, all they need to eat is wood. And I suspect that they're easier to digest than ants, unless the ants are used in some kind of chemical defense by the frog (I'm not pulling this out of a hat--red backed salamanders eat ants and termites, but prefer termites because they're softer and therefore less fibrous). If I had to guess, I really doubt that the offspring would be less picky, but I definitely don't know for sure.

For care information, see the following (even though it's long and confusing, I think it's helpful):
http://antfarm.yuku.com/topic/8870/Want-raise-termites-information-Pictures-included

If you want ant care information I can give you that as well.

 

[Matttoadman]

Thanks. In my area I can collect Reticulitermes sps. I actually have a plot in the backyard where I have stacked paper and cardboard under a piece of infested plywood. I have been able to raid it bi-weekly. They do love them. Ants unfortunately abandon their nest I you expose the nursery. I currently have collected several starter groups (a few queens and workers) of Monomorium minimum. Apparently when you find 1000's under a rock you can find dozens of queen. They have already laid eggs in most groups. These are very tiny though. But the frogs do eat them. My thought is, after the colonies grow large enough, I can attach an "outworld" with some bait, remove it after filled with multiple ants and give to frogs. It's a new level of fun. I will be ready this fall and next spring for swarm season. Being an exterminator I will have opportunities to collect many reproductives of many species.

 

[schmiggle]

Sounds like the ants could be more fun than the frogs I admit, I'm partial to ants. Honestly, if you're in the country and not near a large farm, I wouldn't worry too much about pesticides and parasites. Have you already treated with panacure ( I think it's standard practice for wild-caught herps)?

 

[Matttoadman]

Now this is new to me. Panacur? Interesting. I did not know there was an option for treatment of WC.

 

[Malhavoc's]

The issue you may encounter with ants is that they are prone to being stressed and large drops in their nest population can actually lead to the colony destroying itself as it will not replace the numbers fast enough and most of the inhabitants have grown accustom to the larger number of workers and do not switch roles fast enough in captivity.

A long time ago, a Moderator made a delightful post on the keeping of termites to provide food sources for your various pets and it has been wildly successful when put to use and you should see the numbers you need for stable feeding. lets see here..

I can not seem to locate the post, probably went the way of the Dino however, I can give you a synopsis.

Since termites can replace their reproductives it was a simple notion, I believe some form of substrate (cocofiber?) and in the center an "apartment" of sorts, Popsicle sticks arranged in a square, paper/cardboard/tissue medium in the center or non treated toothpicks or some such, repeat several layers then harvesting is simply removing a layer or two to find your food items, containment is the smaller container in a larger one with a small amount of water.

The issue is that termites always expand, and eventually the culture will bore through the container and thus flood it and drown. but in the long run a lot easier to keep then ants, a lot cheaper and more stable

 

[schmiggle]

Now this is new to me. Panacur? Interesting. I did not know there was an option for treatment of WC.

Panacur is a broad-spectrum antihelminthic often used to treat animals known to be infected (if that's the right term for parasitic worms). However, since wild-caught animals more often than not have some parasite load, and since capture, being stressful, often allows these parasite populations to expand hugely, panacur is often used preventatively on wc animals, as far as I know. However, you may have no need to use it, as I remember your frogs looking to be a healthy weight (although that depends on what the norm for this species is). The best thing to do, if you can, is go to a vet and get fecal samples to see what parasites may be present, especially since panacur can potentially be toxic, although I believe it's unlikely.

 

[schmiggle]

The issue is that termites always expand, and eventually the culture will bore through the container and thus flood it and drown. but in the long run a lot easier to keep then ants, a lot cheaper and more stable

I think there should be a few ways to keep this from happening. I bet they can't bore through glass, and instead of their outer container being filled with water you can put fluon around the top (insects are unable to climb fluon, and termites are fairly poor climbers to start with). Additionally, if you give them a large container but don't feed them that much, you should be able to control the population size.

How many individuals do the frogs tend to eat at a time, and how often do they eat? That might give you a sense of how many ants you need to have at a time if you go with that.

 

[Matttoadman]

good info guys. So far I have been able to feed what seems around 25-50 per feeding twice a week. They all look fairly plump since feeding ants. It may not be sustainable with ants but I guess i can try. I found three Temnothorax queens today.

 

[schmiggle]

good info guys. So far I have been able to feed what seems around 25-50 per feeding twice a week. They all look fairly plump since feeding ants. It may not be sustainable with ants but I guess i can try. I found three Temnothorax queens today.

Glad to hear they're looking healthy. I wouldn't use temnothorax because they tend to have small, monogynous (single-queen) colonies. Your ideal species is something like Argentine ants, where every eighth ant is a queen and colonies can theoretically get infinitely large. You could get away with a monogynous species, but it would have to be one that produces large nests (in the range of several thousand at least), and you would need to give it the space to do so. Even with polygynous (multi-queen) species you would need to do this, but I imagine you could get away with a somewhat smaller nest size, since with so many reproductives the colony should come back more quickly. Another option you have is keeping several smaller nests (but not that small--with 100 worker colonies, Temnothorax just won't cut it, since a colony would lose a quarter to a half of its force every week.

What area are you in, and what species can you get queens of? I'll be able to help more with this info.

 

[Malhavoc's]

Thinking on it, I wonder if a normally invasive but fast laying species of ant such as Anoplolepis gracilipes would suffice? they tend to be rather easy in care and are polygynous.

 

[schmiggle]

Thinking on it, I wonder if a normally invasive but fast laying species of ant such as Anoplolepis gracilipes would suffice? they tend to be rather easy in care and are polygynous.

This is exactly what I was thinking. I care for colonies of Pheidole megacephala at work, and they are almost all always vigorous. You won't be able to find those where you are unless you're in Hawaii, but you should be able to find something equivalent.

 

[Matttoadman]

I live in Kentucky. We have several species of invasives but I can't recal finding crazy ants yet. But now that I am looking other than just spraying them in the field, who can tell? I do have several monomorium minimum queens. They have even laid eggs after being in a pill bottle for a week. I am now trying to create some better housing. The three colonies I found of them contained dozens of queens and thousands of workers. Very small species but a start. My research on the temnothorax did say their colonies were only around 200 max. So my reason for keeping them now is merely the joy of it and experience.

 

[schmiggle]

Temnothorax are in some ways really great as a formicarium species, the small colony size is very convenient and I bet that means the workers are long-lived.

If Monomorium minimum is so polygynous then it sounds to me like it should be perfect. It has the two qualities you're looking for: polygyny and large colony size. Assuming you have the space, resources and time to care for a colony, I would go with that if you don't like the idea of termites (I really think the frogs will like termites better, but there are many, many reasons not to want to keep them). However, you have to make absolutely sure then not to start feeding from your captive colony until it reaches a sufficient size (again, I'm guessing three or four thousand workers would be safe--you have more of a buffer against collapse with so many reproductives).

 

[Matttoadman]

The termite issue is collecting enough.