phonutria sac when to pull and how to know if its furtile?

delherbe

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:rolleyes:
Thats not the date the paper was published... Thats the date when Keyserlingi first described nigriventer...

The paper you think it is from 18xx is form 2002.
 

Earthworm Soul

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:rolleyes:
Thats not the date the paper was published... Thats the date when Keyserlingi first described nigriventer...

The paper you think it is from 18xx is form 2002.
:eek:
Fair enough, but to dismiss their potential danger would be foolish. It wouldn't necessarily take a fatality to make the media start paying attention to our hobby.
 

delherbe

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Hi,

it`s not about media. It`s about people don`t know nothing about Phoneutria and sreaming for a prohibition of these "world deadliest spiders".

Just by LD50 the venom is one of the most powerfuls. But thats not all.

A bite will ruin your day, but as a "healthy" adult, without allergic reactions and such stuff, chances to die are 1000:1.

Phoneutrias slings, semiadluts, subadults, juvis etc. need very high humidity to survive their molt. If its to dry they`ll die if they molt.

And these spiders too try to run away if they have the chance.
 

Earthworm Soul

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Hi,

it`s not about media. It`s about people don`t know nothing about Phoneutria and sreaming for a prohibition of these "world deadliest spiders".

Just by LD50 the venom is one of the most powerfuls. But thats not all.

A bite will ruin your day, but as a "healthy" adult, without allergic reactions and such stuff, chances to die are 1000:1.

Phoneutrias slings, semiadluts, subadults, juvis etc. need very high humidity to survive their molt. If its to dry they`ll die if they molt.

And these spiders too try to run away if they have the chance.
I have no doubt that their danger is exaggerated, and I certainly don't want them to be prohibited. In a perfect world, only responsible people would keep any kind of animals, but sadly, it doesn't work like that.

I'd love for the hobby to do more to promote responsible keeping of potentially dangerous species, but there are just too many people who do the hobby a disservice by selling irresponsibly.
 

blacktara

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http://www.scielo.br/pdf/rimtsp/v42n1/v42n1a03.pdf

Heres the summary

From January, 1984 to December, 1996, 422 patients (ages 9 m-99 y, median 29 y) were admitted after being bitten by spiders
which were brought and identified as Phoneutria spp. Most of the bites occurred at March and April months (29.2%), in the houses
(54.5%), during the day (76.5%), and in the limbs (feet 40.9%, hands 34.3%). Upon hospital admission, most patients presented only
local complaints, mainly pain (92.1%) and edema (33.1%) and were classified as presenting mild (89.8%), moderate (8.5%) and
severe (0.5%) envenomation. Few patients (1.2%) did not present signs of envenomation. Severe accidents were only confirmed in
two children (9 m, 3 y). Both developed acute pulmonary edema, and the older died 9 h after the accident. Patients more than 70 yearold
had a significantly greater (p<0.05) frequency of moderate envenomations compared to the 10-70-year-old individuals. Proceedings
to relief local pain were frequently performed (local anesthesia alone 32.0%, local anesthesia plus analgesics 20.6% and oral analgesics
alone 25.1%). Only 2.3% of the patients (two cases classified as severe and eight as moderate, eight of them in children) were treated
with i.v. antiarachnid antivenom. No antivenom early reaction was observed. In conclusion, accidents involving the genus Phoneutria
are common in the region of Campinas, with the highest risk groups being children under 10 years of age and adults over 70 years of
age. Cases of serious envenomation are rare (0.5%).

And heres an exceprt from the text that discusses how they rated the bites

The accidents were classified as asymptomatic when the patient
presented no local or systemic manifestations, mild when there was pain
and other local manifestations eventually associated with tachycardia
and restless, moderate when, in addition to the above manifestations
there was sweating and/or occasional vomiting, and severe when the
responses above were associated with profuse sweating, frequent
vomiting, muscle hypertonia, priapism, shock and/or acute pulmonary
edema13. In most cases, there was insufficient information to allow the
inclusion of arterial hypertension or hypotension as an important
manifestation in the above responses.

90 percent of bites basically amount to an uncomfortable ouchie

9 percent are that and you get a little sick

0.5 percent severe envenomation

The severe envenomations , 2 out of over 4öö, were both in small children

Its reasonable to suppose that the elderly or those with significant underlying health issues would also be more suspect to suffering severe symptoms

But the bottom line is this - if you are a healthy adult, a bite from this spider might hurt, but it wont really hurt you
 

Earthworm Soul

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http://www.scielo.br/pdf/rimtsp/v42n1/v42n1a03.pdf

Heres the summary

From January, 1984 to December, 1996, 422 patients (ages 9 m-99 y, median 29 y) were admitted after being bitten by spiders
which were brought and identified as Phoneutria spp. Most of the bites occurred at March and April months (29.2%), in the houses
(54.5%), during the day (76.5%), and in the limbs (feet 40.9%, hands 34.3%). Upon hospital admission, most patients presented only
local complaints, mainly pain (92.1%) and edema (33.1%) and were classified as presenting mild (89.8%), moderate (8.5%) and
severe (0.5%) envenomation. Few patients (1.2%) did not present signs of envenomation. Severe accidents were only confirmed in
two children (9 m, 3 y). Both developed acute pulmonary edema, and the older died 9 h after the accident. Patients more than 70 yearold
had a significantly greater (p<0.05) frequency of moderate envenomations compared to the 10-70-year-old individuals. Proceedings
to relief local pain were frequently performed (local anesthesia alone 32.0%, local anesthesia plus analgesics 20.6% and oral analgesics
alone 25.1%). Only 2.3% of the patients (two cases classified as severe and eight as moderate, eight of them in children) were treated
with i.v. antiarachnid antivenom. No antivenom early reaction was observed. In conclusion, accidents involving the genus Phoneutria
are common in the region of Campinas, with the highest risk groups being children under 10 years of age and adults over 70 years of
age. Cases of serious envenomation are rare (0.5%).

And heres an exceprt from the text that discusses how they rated the bites

The accidents were classified as asymptomatic when the patient
presented no local or systemic manifestations, mild when there was pain
and other local manifestations eventually associated with tachycardia
and restless, moderate when, in addition to the above manifestations
there was sweating and/or occasional vomiting, and severe when the
responses above were associated with profuse sweating, frequent
vomiting, muscle hypertonia, priapism, shock and/or acute pulmonary
edema13. In most cases, there was insufficient information to allow the
inclusion of arterial hypertension or hypotension as an important
manifestation in the above responses.

90 percent of bites basically amount to an uncomfortable ouchie

9 percent are that and you get a little sick

0.5 percent severe envenomation

The severe envenomations , 2 out of over 4öö, were both in small children

Its reasonable to suppose that the elderly or those with significant underlying health issues would also be more suspect to suffering severe symptoms

But the bottom line is this - if you are a healthy adult, a bite from this spider might hurt, but it wont really hurt you
As I stated, I have no doubt that their danger has been exaggerated. However, they are still more venomous than most species in the hobby, and I'd make the same argument for responsible keeping and selling if we were talking about Scolopendra, Poecilotheria, Hetroscodra, Leiurus, or whatever.
 

delherbe

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Messages
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Hi,

LD50 for humans is about 0,04 to 0,09. According to the source.

Let`s take 0,09mg/kg. (The toxicity of the venom from younger stadiums (semiadults, juvis etc.) is much lesser)

To kill one of two (LethalDose to 50%) 70kg it would need 6,3mg. But nigriventer just have between 1 and 2mg. And if they just give their average injectiondoze from 0,4mg chances to die are really really low.

Thats why I laugh about people like Fran..:D Compare Phoneutrias with Puffadders and snakes in this league shows how slight the knowledge of that is what he talks about. Don`t get that too personally.
 

Earthworm Soul

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Messages
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Hi,

LD50 for humans is about 0,04 to 0,09. According to the source.

Let`s take 0,09mg/kg. (The toxicity of the venom from younger stadiums (semiadults, juvis etc.) is much lesser)

To kill one of two (LethalDose to 50%) 70kg it would need 6,3mg. But nigriventer just have between 1 and 2mg. And if they just give their average injectiondoze from 0,4mg chances to die are really really low.

Thats why I laugh about people like Fran..:D Compare Phoneutrias with Puffadders and snakes in this league shows how slight the knowledge of that is what he talks about. Don`t get that too personally.
A Phoneutria is definitely not anywhere near as dangerous as a puff adder, but I think it would be fair to compare one to say, a Scolopendra. Scolopendra only cause fatalities very rarely, but a medically significant reaction isn't uncommon and a lot of people here seem to have no moral problem with selling Scolopendra to minors.

http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?t=183677
 

delherbe

Arachnosquire
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Messages
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Some parts of the Phoneutriatoxin works like that from the Bullet Ant and opens the voltage gated Natriumchannels (but PhTx does this even more powerful than the bullet ant does, and the bullet ant is, according to Dr. J. O. Schmidt`s painscala the full level.....) what ends up in horrible pain for hours and hours and hours. Nothing I wanna experience by myself.

There are for sure a lot of things that can happen after a bite, but deadchances are small. Impotency, Nerveproblems, Spastics etc.
 

Earthworm Soul

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Messages
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Some parts of the Phoneutriatoxin works like that from the Bullet Ant and opens the voltage gated Natriumchannels (but PhTx does this even more powerful than the bullet ant does, and the bullet ant is, according to Dr. J. O. Schmidt`s painscala the full level.....) what ends up in horrible pain for hours and hours and hours. Nothing I wanna experience by myself.

There are for sure a lot of things that can happen after a bite, but deadchances are small. Impotency, Nerveproblems, Spastics etc.
I don't think we're actually disagreeing on anything...
 

delherbe

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Messages
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Hi,

sure. Never said something different. I don`t wanna get tagged by these spiders, but if someone scream about how deadly they are and that nobody should keep them, then sometimes someone must pull out the facts which the scientist have published.:D
 

bluefrogtat2

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androctonus and lqs have been kept for years,ad so have black widows.
of course most sellers wouldnt sell these to minors or the inexperienced.
i would say the same thing would be the case for phounetria,and i will welcome them in the hobby for sure.
i also dont think i should be told what i can or cannot keep,no matter who disagrees with it.
some nice points have been made,but at the same time,who is gonna draw the line,those in favor of a phounetria ban are also in favor of a ban of large snakes and pitbulls majority of the time.i personally dont agree with the whole big brother controlling what i decide to have interests in.and could not disagree more with the uneducated banning of these spiders,i have two young children in the house and still have andros,and sicarius,i just happen to treat them with respect and have them housed in a manner that i dont worry about them escaping or causing harm to anyone.
the banning of them will only make the black market ones more valuable,only harder to get...
i for one cannot wait to have a few of each..
andy
 

Fran

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Thats why I laugh about people like Fran..:D Compare Phoneutrias with Puffadders and snakes in this league shows how slight the knowledge of that is what he talks about. Don`t get that too personally.
If you re read my posts you will realize I never compare them. I put them under the same "bad idea sac" of animals sold without propper control.

Before "laughing" at people make sure you know how to read
. Dont get that too personally.
 

John Apple

Just a guy
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wow...Facts ...hard to argue with facts Fran
The rep they have is more than they really are
way more loxo bites also
way more latro bites also
I do not take them for granted...they are fast but manageable [there are faster]
Oddly enough as LONG as these have been in the hobby in other countries...why no bite reports:)
Oh yeah Andy...you will get some bro
 

Fran

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Yes, is really hard to make some people understand.

Who cares that the chances youll die are low? Are we dumb here?

It is still a higly venomous spider than on the wrong hands will cause a lot of problems. Im asking for responsabilities,for security,for regulation.

Lots of experts here I see. Experts that fill up the bite reports. :rolleyes:

Very well. Keep them,put them available to everybody in the hobby. If you happen to get bitten you will get a humble dose of reality.
I dont care in the least, to be honest.
 

bluefrogtat2

Arachnoangel
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like it has been previously stated several times(yet not addressed)there are venomous insects being kept currently without regulation(androctonus having been sited more than once)and i havent seen a influx of sting reports.dealers,would of course not sell these to minors,what is the difference?
the regulation of widows and "hot"scorps has not effected our hobby,why would the introduction of the "dreaded"pounetria be any different?
i have seen sicarius on several dealers lists (reputed to be even "hotter" than phounetria)and i dont see a big deal being made of these.
the keeping of a phounetria by a experienced keeper is not much different from the keeping of a poecilotheria,the same care and respect given to this animal would result in the same learning and enjoyment.i assume you are as against the keeping of pokies as u are the phounetria?
andy
 

Fran

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like it has been previously stated several times(yet not addressed)there are venomous insects being kept currently without regulation(androctonus having been sited more than once)and i havent seen a influx of sting reports.dealers,would of course not sell these to minors,what is the difference?
the regulation of widows and "hot"scorps has not effected our hobby,why would the introduction of the "dreaded"pounetria be any different?
i have seen sicarius on several dealers lists (reputed to be even "hotter" than phounetria)and i dont see a big deal being made of these.
the keeping of a phounetria by a experienced keeper is not much different from the keeping of a poecilotheria,the same care and respect given to this animal would result in the same learning and enjoyment.i assume you are as against the keeping of pokies as u are the phounetria?
andy


Hi Andy,

First, you cant possibly compare Phoneutria with Poecilotheria.

But yes, I agree with what oyu said and Im against those high venomous animals being available to the vast hobby. Im absolutely against it, and I would LOVE to keep P.Fera among other species.

It is proven that the ammount of incompetent people out there who keeps these animals is astonising. In my opinion, full control of who keeps them and legal responsability is needed.

Again, this example its been maid several times. I contact someone on the boards, I get myself an LQ, a Phoneutria or a Mamba. I let it escape and bites your 10 year old daughter. Then what?

What if I dont keep any other animals at home? Would it be cristal clear how the heck that animal ended up killing your daughter?

Then dont tell me the first think that would cross your mind is not "This was a bad idea".


I just dont understand why no one claims his "Freedom" when they tell you that you cant drive 200mph,or they ask you for insurance and registration of your vehicle...But seems like is against the constitution to ask you for a permit to have a potencially lethal animal.
 

bluefrogtat2

Arachnoangel
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first off having kept both phounetrias and poecilotheria i can make the comparison.pokies are readily available and potentially dangerous,they get larger are aggressive and pose a pretty good threat.so yeah i can compare the two very mcuh,plus the fact that a potential dealer of the pokie is alot less apt to ask an age etc when buying a pokie.the regulations are there when dealing with deadly or"hots"no reputable dealer is gonna sell an lq without asking a few questions first.sure some will ,but why would the phounetria be singled out,i think there should be regulations,i am not arguing that fact at all,i am just saying that the phounetria should be treated with the same respect and laws that currently govern the sales of hots,and not be put into any special category.
i have seen the hobby change alot since i started keeping inverts(since '84)and i have noted a large influx of potentially hazardous inverts into the hobby,so far it has been dealt with in a manner that hasnt greatly effected our hobby.(more experienced keepers are able to get some of the rarer and deadlier species)i would hate to see our hobby be governed to the point of venomous reptiles,i live in illinois and no matter how bad i want to own a rattler or a cobra it isnt gonna happen ,it is oulawed,and frowned upon with heavy fines etc..
i would hate to see our hobby in the same situation,i think your bannning of the phounetria on your listed ideas should also include poecilotheria and a few others who i have actually known a few people to sustain bites from ,and end in hospital as well.
i think they should be in our hobby as much as the lq's,and the andros(not to mention the sicarius or the latros)and to say they should be put into a seperate class is simply ridiculous.
andy
 

John Apple

Just a guy
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well when looking at it from a horse blinder view point...you get this argument Andy...allways the same ...total ignorance of the facts proven...ahhh well I suppose everybody has a cause....:?
 

Fran

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well when looking at it from a horse blinder view point...you get this argument Andy...allways the same ...total ignorance of the facts proven...ahhh well I suppose everybody has a cause....:?
Please John, shut up really.You dont make any sense. Do a favor to yourself and dont keep posting ridiculous non sense posts.


Andy,

I never said we shouls single out Phoneutria, but we are talking about Phoneutria here.

The venom of these species can not compare to the venom of Poecilotheria, so no matter what you have kept or not, that is pointless.

The reasoning of "so far nothing has happened" means pretty much nothing.
The more available they are without any control, the more chances of problems to the point of baning the whole thing. And as I said, then everything would have to be kept ilegally.
Is asking for problems, if you ask me.

Another stupid reasoning is "I keep them safe", "I have them for some time and nothing has ever happened"...That is ridiculous.

We are not talking about you guys, we are talking about the HUGE amount of people who fills the YouTube accounts with hots handleing and prodding these animals. People who WILL get these highly venomous animals and who WILL cause trouble.
 
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