Thats not the date the paper was published... Thats the date when Keyserlingi first described nigriventer...
The paper you think it is from 18xx is form 2002.
I have no doubt that their danger is exaggerated, and I certainly don't want them to be prohibited. In a perfect world, only responsible people would keep any kind of animals, but sadly, it doesn't work like that.Hi,
it`s not about media. It`s about people don`t know nothing about Phoneutria and sreaming for a prohibition of these "world deadliest spiders".
Just by LD50 the venom is one of the most powerfuls. But thats not all.
A bite will ruin your day, but as a "healthy" adult, without allergic reactions and such stuff, chances to die are 1000:1.
Phoneutrias slings, semiadluts, subadults, juvis etc. need very high humidity to survive their molt. If its to dry they`ll die if they molt.
And these spiders too try to run away if they have the chance.
As I stated, I have no doubt that their danger has been exaggerated. However, they are still more venomous than most species in the hobby, and I'd make the same argument for responsible keeping and selling if we were talking about Scolopendra, Poecilotheria, Hetroscodra, Leiurus, or whatever.http://www.scielo.br/pdf/rimtsp/v42n1/v42n1a03.pdf
Heres the summary
From January, 1984 to December, 1996, 422 patients (ages 9 m-99 y, median 29 y) were admitted after being bitten by spiders
which were brought and identified as Phoneutria spp. Most of the bites occurred at March and April months (29.2%), in the houses
(54.5%), during the day (76.5%), and in the limbs (feet 40.9%, hands 34.3%). Upon hospital admission, most patients presented only
local complaints, mainly pain (92.1%) and edema (33.1%) and were classified as presenting mild (89.8%), moderate (8.5%) and
severe (0.5%) envenomation. Few patients (1.2%) did not present signs of envenomation. Severe accidents were only confirmed in
two children (9 m, 3 y). Both developed acute pulmonary edema, and the older died 9 h after the accident. Patients more than 70 yearold
had a significantly greater (p<0.05) frequency of moderate envenomations compared to the 10-70-year-old individuals. Proceedings
to relief local pain were frequently performed (local anesthesia alone 32.0%, local anesthesia plus analgesics 20.6% and oral analgesics
alone 25.1%). Only 2.3% of the patients (two cases classified as severe and eight as moderate, eight of them in children) were treated
with i.v. antiarachnid antivenom. No antivenom early reaction was observed. In conclusion, accidents involving the genus Phoneutria
are common in the region of Campinas, with the highest risk groups being children under 10 years of age and adults over 70 years of
age. Cases of serious envenomation are rare (0.5%).
And heres an exceprt from the text that discusses how they rated the bites
The accidents were classified as asymptomatic when the patient
presented no local or systemic manifestations, mild when there was pain
and other local manifestations eventually associated with tachycardia
and restless, moderate when, in addition to the above manifestations
there was sweating and/or occasional vomiting, and severe when the
responses above were associated with profuse sweating, frequent
vomiting, muscle hypertonia, priapism, shock and/or acute pulmonary
edema13. In most cases, there was insufficient information to allow the
inclusion of arterial hypertension or hypotension as an important
manifestation in the above responses.
90 percent of bites basically amount to an uncomfortable ouchie
9 percent are that and you get a little sick
0.5 percent severe envenomation
The severe envenomations , 2 out of over 4öö, were both in small children
Its reasonable to suppose that the elderly or those with significant underlying health issues would also be more suspect to suffering severe symptoms
But the bottom line is this - if you are a healthy adult, a bite from this spider might hurt, but it wont really hurt you
A Phoneutria is definitely not anywhere near as dangerous as a puff adder, but I think it would be fair to compare one to say, a Scolopendra. Scolopendra only cause fatalities very rarely, but a medically significant reaction isn't uncommon and a lot of people here seem to have no moral problem with selling Scolopendra to minors.Hi,
LD50 for humans is about 0,04 to 0,09. According to the source.
Let`s take 0,09mg/kg. (The toxicity of the venom from younger stadiums (semiadults, juvis etc.) is much lesser)
To kill one of two (LethalDose to 50%) 70kg it would need 6,3mg. But nigriventer just have between 1 and 2mg. And if they just give their average injectiondoze from 0,4mg chances to die are really really low.
Thats why I laugh about people like Fran.. Compare Phoneutrias with Puffadders and snakes in this league shows how slight the knowledge of that is what he talks about. Don`t get that too personally.
I don't think we're actually disagreeing on anything...Some parts of the Phoneutriatoxin works like that from the Bullet Ant and opens the voltage gated Natriumchannels (but PhTx does this even more powerful than the bullet ant does, and the bullet ant is, according to Dr. J. O. Schmidt`s painscala the full level.....) what ends up in horrible pain for hours and hours and hours. Nothing I wanna experience by myself.
There are for sure a lot of things that can happen after a bite, but deadchances are small. Impotency, Nerveproblems, Spastics etc.
If you re read my posts you will realize I never compare them. I put them under the same "bad idea sac" of animals sold without propper control.Thats why I laugh about people like Fran.. Compare Phoneutrias with Puffadders and snakes in this league shows how slight the knowledge of that is what he talks about. Don`t get that too personally.
like it has been previously stated several times(yet not addressed)there are venomous insects being kept currently without regulation(androctonus having been sited more than once)and i havent seen a influx of sting reports.dealers,would of course not sell these to minors,what is the difference?
the regulation of widows and "hot"scorps has not effected our hobby,why would the introduction of the "dreaded"pounetria be any different?
i have seen sicarius on several dealers lists (reputed to be even "hotter" than phounetria)and i dont see a big deal being made of these.
the keeping of a phounetria by a experienced keeper is not much different from the keeping of a poecilotheria,the same care and respect given to this animal would result in the same learning and enjoyment.i assume you are as against the keeping of pokies as u are the phounetria?
Please John, shut up really.You dont make any sense. Do a favor to yourself and dont keep posting ridiculous non sense posts.well when looking at it from a horse blinder view point...you get this argument Andy...allways the same ...total ignorance of the facts proven...ahhh well I suppose everybody has a cause....:?