phonutria sac when to pull and how to know if its furtile?

Fran

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when the US herp hobby has had cobras and puff adders for decades without inducing an apocalypse.
.
...And I wish they werent available for everybody.
"Kids" and novices are not going to buy Phoneutria if the community of hobbyists does its job educating them and encouraging responsible decision-making about what to keep, and what to put off for later.
.
Thats absolutely unreal. Maybe in another world.
BUT, I don't think my personal safety preferences should dictate availability of those species to other hobbyists who would be ok with keeping them.
.
Accidents happen. If the 20 year old idiot of your neighbour forgets closing the lid on the black mamba, de P.Fera, the Puff adder...It is a bit of an everyone corncern.
Since theres not a way to make sure tht wont happen, Im against it.
 

cacoseraph

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hell ya they should be allowed to build the "ground zero mosque"!


oh sorry, i get my completely factless debates mixed up sometimes
 

Fran

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hell ya they should be allowed to build the "ground zero mosque"!


oh sorry, i get my completely factless debates mixed up sometimes

Come on Caco, Gd knows I like you...But what the heck are you implying here..really, lets cut the crap :)
There are proven facts that a full bite from one of those 3 that I menctioned can perfectly cause serious thread for human beings, not to menction kids and elder people.

And we want that available for everybody?
Oh, we are gonna rely on the seller?

-Ok, so ill ship tomorrow..........
....hm crap, wait a second, how old are you? You know these animals are dangerous....

-Hmmm, Im 21...21 Sr. I have had some before.

-Oh, ok then. then you are fine.
 

Venom

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Thats absolutely unreal. Maybe in another world.
What, then, do you think the role of experts is in this community, if not to instruct and guide the up-and-coming hobbyists and help them make good decisions about what to keep?


...And I wish they werent available for everybody.....

Accidents happen. If the 20 year old idiot of your neighbour forgets closing the lid on the black mamba, de P.Fera, the Puff adder...It is a bit of an everyone corncern.
Since theres not a way to make sure tht wont happen, Im against it.
That is not a logical response to ANY risk. You can't choose to not drive, not go out of your home, etc. on the premise that "one cannot make sure that ___ won't happen, therefore nobody should ____." This is a ridiculous level of fear of accident. Operating on your paradigm, I would never go wilderness hiking, fishing, mountain climbing...I could be killed in any of those activities. I couldn't even drive...because, who knows...my brakes might fail.

For many of us, keeping venomous arthropods is a quality of life choice: our pursuit of happiness involves the husbandry of toxic fauna. You can't tell me that your choices that involve risk to yourself and others --such as driving a car-- are more rational and acceptable than my choices to behave in ways that may also bear a risk. If you say that hazardous behaviours are acceptable for nobody, then I say go lock yourself in your home and order food in from google and never drive or go anywhere again...because you can't otherwise prevent yourself from spreading a flu that might kill someone, or sliding off the road and hitting a pedestrian.

Liberty means that each citizen has the right to make choices for themselves that are in keeping with responsibility. If I choose to keep a toxic animal, I have an accompanying responsibility to be highly cautious with it, out of respect for others. If I do EVERYTHING right, and an accident happens anyway...that is a tragedy, but it is the price of liberty. The possibility of accidents is the price we pay for preserving our right to individual choice. It's all or nothing: either we can choose how to live our lives, and then match risk with caution.....or we surrender the right to accept risk, which is a major component of individual liberty. A socialist Euro-weenie might accept the rescinding of this right in the name of a fantasy of social safety, but I'm an American, and I choose for myself how I will live. If I want a cobra, I'll buy a cobra, and then I'll be aggresively cautious with it out of a consciencious responsibility, but I'll still exercise my right to keep it.
 

Fran

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That is not a logical response to ANY risk. You can't choose to not drive, not go out of your home, etc. on the premise that "one cannot make sure that ___ won't happen, therefore nobody should ____." This is a ridiculous level of fear of accident. Operating on your paradigm, I would never go wilderness hiking, fishing, mountain climbing...I could be killed in any of those activities. I couldn't even drive...because, who knows...my brakes might fail.

For many of us, keeping venomous arthropods is a quality of life choice: our pursuit of happiness involves the husbandry of toxic fauna. You can't tell me that your choices that involve risk to yourself and others --such as driving a car-- are more rational and acceptable than my choices to behave in ways that may also bear a risk. If you say that hazardous behaviours are acceptable for nobody, then I say go lock yourself in your home and order food in from google and never drive or go anywhere again...because you can't otherwise prevent yourself from spreading a flu that might kill someone, or sliding off the road and hitting a pedestrian.

Liberty means that each citizen has the right to make choices for themselves that are in keeping with responsibility. If I choose to keep a toxic animal, I have an accompanying responsibility to be highly cautious with it, out of respect for others. If I do EVERYTHING right, and an accident happens anyway...that is a tragedy, but it is the price of liberty. The possibility of accidents is the price we pay for preserving our right to individual choice. It's all or nothing: either we can choose how to live our lives, and then match risk with caution.....or we surrender the right to accept risk, which is a major component of individual liberty. A socialist Euro-weenie might accept the rescinding of this right in the name of a fantasy of social safety, but I'm an American, and I choose for myself how I will live. If I want a cobra, I'll buy a cobra, and then I'll be aggresively cautious with it out of a consciencious responsibility, but I'll still exercise my right to keep it.

You fail to realize that keeping a highly venomous animal for your ammusement is not comparable, AT ANY RATE, to driving a car.
(I cant believe I had to type that sentence)


If your "pursuit of happiness" means that you are gonna jeoperdize my well being in a deliberated manner , then my friend, in my opinion , either you find another hobby or you dont live near me.


That is, by the way, another absurd. What If I say that my pursue of happiness is to play with grenades at home? Or driving 200 miles an hour?

One thing is freedom (lets not go there, for God sakes) another one is fail to regulate stupid unnecessary problems waiting to happen.

Do you want a black mamba just for your ammusement, Or whatever highly venomous animal?
Fine. 1st An exhaustive exame (Basically to prove you are not a brainless idiot ), second a permit which implies fully legal responsability of the animal.


Lets not be stupid and believe that everything can be self regulated, self understood, and eveybody has a huge amount of logic.
 

Fran

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A socialist Euro-weenie might accept the rescinding of this right in the name of a fantasy of social safety, but I'm an American, and I choose for myself how I will live.


Ok,didnt read that. That is a really stupid sentence,uncalled for, arrogant and Quite idiotic. At this point I have nothing else to say to you. I dont have respect for your opinions, neither towards you.
I would appreciate if from now on you just ignore me.
 

Venom

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You fail to realize that keeping a highly venomous animal for your ammusement is not comparable, AT ANY RATE, to driving a car.
You're right, far more deaths and injuries occur per-capita of car owners than occur per-capita of snake and spider owners combined. Cars are much more dangerous to keep than snakes are.



If your "persue of happiness" means that you are gonna jeoperdize my well being in a deliberated manner , then my friend, in my opinion , either you find another hobby or you dont live near me.
Again, you accept somebody driving past you on the street--that is a risk you have gotten used to. Don't you see the inherent risk with a car moving at 40 mph only yards away from a sidewalk? Isn't that a crazy risk, to have moving vehicles so close to people they could hit--and DO hit all the time? And yet, you accept this deliberate and dangerous behaviour because you are acclimated to it, and because people are generally very responsible. And yet, accidents happen quite frequently. Do you think cars should be kept away from all pedestrians and residential zones? I tell you, there is no difference between safe drivers operating their vehicles near others, and safe hobbyists keeping their scorpions and spiders near others also.

What If I say that my persue of happiness is to play with grenades at home?
Home? Alone? With no nearby neighbors? Go for it. Their blast radius is pretty short.


Or driving 200 miles an hour?
On a racetrack, sure. There's a place for that. There is also a place for keeping venomous inverts: a locked closet or invert-room. Problem solved.


One thing is freedom (lets not go there, for God sakes) another one is fail to regulate stupid unnecessary problems waiting to happen.

Do you want a black mamba just for your ammusement, Or whatever highly venomous animal?
Fine. 1st An exhaustive exame (Basically to prove you are not a brainless idiot ), second a permit which implies fully legal responsability of the animal.
That is a modern European worldview: regulate everything, don't trust the individual, government is the answer. I reject that. Individuals are smart enough to decide what is best for themselves. As Ronald Reagan said: "I don't believe in a government that protects us from ourselves."


Lets not be stupid and believe that everything can be self regulated, self understood, and eveybody has a huge amount of logic.[/

The above statement is in direct contradiction with the attitude of the architects of the Constitition, who demonstrably believed that the individual is capable of self-regulating and making intelligent decisions for their best interests.
 
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Venom

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Ok,didnt read that. That is a really stupid sentence,uncalled for, arrogant and Quite idiotic. At this point I have nothing else to say to you. I dont have respect for your opinions, neither towards you.
I would appreciate if from now on you just ignore me.
There is no reason to be offended. I was not applying that description to you.

I was referring to the attitude of European governments in how they handle the permitting of venomous animals, and to their citizens' acceptance of said governments' limitations on their rights.

I know how Europeans think with regard to these issues, as I grew up in Europe, and I'm an historian of modern Europe. I understand the socialist mentality that prevails there, and how it contrasts with the American attitude toward civil liberties. Personally, I feel the European approach to civil liberty is antithetical to is preservation, for as Benjamin Franklin said: "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."

Essentially, the discussion over the right to keep toxic animals is a political one, so I just went into my views on rights and liberties vs regulations. If you are offended at my opinion of Europe's prevailing sissiness and incorrect handling of the venomous keeping issue, then you can go ahead and be offended if you wish. I have seen both sides, and my position is a reasoned and informed one.
 

Fran

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There is no reason to be offended. I was not applying that description to you.

I was referring to the attitude of European governments in how they handle the permitting of venomous animals, and to their citizens' acceptance of said governments' limitations on their rights.

I know how Europeans think with regard to these issues, as I grew up in Europe, and I'm an historian of modern Europe. I understand the socialist mentality that prevails there, and how it contrasts with the American attitude toward civil liberties. Personally, I feel the European approach to civil liberty is antithetical to is preservation, for as Benjamin Franklin said: "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."

Essentially, the discussion over the right to keep toxic animals is a political one, so I just went into my views on rights and liberties vs regulations. If you are offended at my opinion of Europe's prevailing sissiness and incorrect handling of the venomous keeping issue, then you can go ahead and be offended if you wish. I have seen both sides, and my position is a reasoned and informed one.

Oh wait a minute, you are 26. Where you born and raised there? And how long have you been in the US?
So yeah, I guess while you were 10 or 12 you were pondering about the contrast of the European-American mind regarding goverment implication.

If you didnt mean to insult, re word your ideas.
 

Venom

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Oh wait a minute, you are 26. Where you born and raised there? And how long have you been in the US?
So yeah, I guess while you were 10 or 12 you were pondering about the contrast of the European-American mind regarding goverment implication.

If you didnt mean to insult, re word your ideas.
I was 6 months old when my family moved to Ireland, which was home until I was 13. I travelled back and forth between the US and Ireland, England, and the Continent extensively and frequently. Comparing cultures is how I grew up. When we returned permanently to the US I spent the next several years in culture shock, trying to come to terms with life in the US. I am very much a "third-culture kid." Trust me, I understand Europe, and I understand Europeans. I'm also finishing up an M.A. degree in European history. I have extensively studied 18th-century colonial and Early-Republic America, at the 300-level, and at the 700-level. As per my position, I co-taught Survey of Early American History at my university.

I do feel I am qualified to make comparisions and analyses of the two continents' outlook on government and rights.

My comment was derisive of Europe, not you. If you apply that comment to yourself, that is your business. Only you know fully what you think and believe. If you are saying that you are in agreement fully with the outlook that I criticized, then yes, I think that view is bad, weak, and contradictory. I don't want to insult you personally, but I must be honest about what I think of an ideology that I feel is deeply flawed. I don't condemn people, just ideas. Scholars do this all the time, not to attack each other, but to build up or break down systems of thought. I am debating with you, not AT you. Please don't take personal offense if I attempt to undermine, sometimes caustically, an ideological position you ascribe to. It's not about you.
 

The Spider Faery

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Not to get inflammatory, but I don't see why you have such an issue with Phoneutria being in the hobby, when the US herp hobby has had cobras and puff adders for decades without inducing an apocalypse. Do you really think Phoneutria are worse?
I wasn't even thinking of any other species of spider, let alone another type of animal, but just considering the subject at hand, Phoneutria. But since you mention it, I don't think they are worse than cobras or puff adders and I don't condone them, either.
 

John Apple

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hmmm more back and forth balogna...the three I have are jst over an inch...yes they are fast but manageable by any Experienced keeper...they look to be 2.1 and when they breed for me [ if they do ] I will offer them up to any one with ten bucks....lol kidding here;P
I worry more about driving to work every day more than I am sure people in Brazil worry about phoneutria bites....
they are here and hopefully to stay if I have any mechanics on it:cool:
 

bluefrogtat2

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i have to agree with john 100%.(and put me on the top of that list john...lol)
andy
 

Fran

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I worry more about driving to work every day more than I am sure people in Brazil worry about phoneutria bites....

Cool I mean, if its up to just post the first stupid idea that crosses your mind, then Speddy Gonzalez with a blue poncho is the man who killed
Liberty Balance.
 

John Apple

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Cool I mean, if its up to just post the first stupid idea that crosses your mind, then Speddy Gonzalez with a blue poncho is the man who killed
Liberty Balance.
Well Fran...no stupid ideas but really man...get a grip....there is no stupidity in my post but yours..:?..:rolleyes: I have a mind that can see beyond the spiders web...yours seems to get caught up in it
simply put there are way more phoneutria in Brazil than there are cars in USA and cars in the USA kill more people than phoes bite people dry or otherwise......hmmm my spidey sense is tingling...I see another useless crusade by someone that can't read between the lines coming up.
Man I wonder how many mistakes have happened by all the folk keeping these ;]
 

Fran

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Well Fran...no stupid ideas but really man...get a grip....there is no stupidity in my post but yours..:?..:rolleyes: I have a mind that can see beyond the spiders web...yours seems to get caught up in it
simply put there are way more phoneutria in Brazil than there are cars in USA and cars in the USA kill more people than phoes bite people dry or otherwise......hmmm my spidey sense is tingling...I see another useless crusade by someone that can't read between the lines coming up.
Man I wonder how many mistakes have happened by all the folk keeping these ;]

To compare car accidents with keeping Phoneutria as a hobby is one of the stupidest thing I have heard regarding spiders.

You can be all for keeping them, thats fine. But comparing that to the dangerous in the need of using cars is ridiculous. Absolutely no possible relation , at all.

Let me make an example, so you can understand it better;

Climbing without ropes is really dangerous, but Cancer kills more people, so is ok.
 
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John Apple

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and the crusade continues....lets try dogs and phoes then...dogs kill WAAAAAYYYY more people than phoes do....and phoes outnumber dogs WAAAAAYYYY more ......
and yes I have climbing gear....used to use it in Florida climbing cypress to take pictures of orchids.....I will never climb without that and I will allways take the necessary [and then some] precautions when dealing with phoes
 

Fran

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and the crusade continues....lets try dogs and phoes then...dogs kill WAAAAAYYYY more people than phoes do....and phoes outnumber dogs WAAAAAYYYY more ......
and yes I have climbing gear....used to use it in Florida climbing cypress to take pictures of orchids.....I will never climb without that and I will allways take the necessary [and then some] precautions when dealing with phoes
Trying to reason with you is like trying with a river stone.

Lets drop it.
 
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John Apple

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and yes my friend ...reasoning with you is like trying to feed a cow meat....we agree to disagree
6-8 months phoes everywhere;P
I feel somewhat passionate about being able to keep what I want so if I ranted to a wall you folks here at AB have my utmost apologies
the good ol USA
 
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NevularScorpion

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Good Argument Venom just by reading your reasoning and belief really convinced me that we should have this wondering spiders in the U.S. hobby. Your a good debater bro :)
 
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