Personality

viper69

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I don't know. That's kinda the core of my question
Well I suggest you learn more about them in the wild, before suggesting they need stimulation.

If you think they need a stimulation, you are gravely mistaken.


Also, when you quote people, don't put your answer in the quote! :smirk:
 

QuinnStarr

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You're going to argue with anything anyone says.

Fact: Tarantulas do not have a true brain.
A true brain would give them the capacity to act on more than just instinct. Instead, they have a primitive central nervous system that allows them to do just enough to survive - eat, burrow/climb, find moisture, molt.

Tarantulas don't have the capacity for a personality because they do not have a true brain.
Tarantulas can not learn to love you or develop other behaviors based on stimuli (i.e. being Pavlov'd)

"How do you know this? You've been a spider in your past life? Or you just assuming?"
This response right here tells me everything I need to know about you. You're here to push your anthropomorphized beliefs rather than let yourself be educated on what is known about tarantulas.

You can not train a defensive tarantula to enjoy being handled. You can not train an obligate burrower not to burrow. You can not train an Avicularia avicularia not to shoot poop when it's threatened or not to climb. You can't train them not to make a molting mat or train a NW species not to kick hairs.

They are not like a dog. If I set a raw ribeye in front of my dog and tell him "No", he won't touch it, even though his instinct tells him to eat it because he has a brain and can be trained.
If I put a cricket in my tarantula enclosure and tell it "No", the tarantula is going to eat the cricket anyway because it is not aware of anything besides instinct.

With that, I wash my hands of this thread.
 

Craig73

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My G. iheringi comes up to the front of the enclosure and puts a foot on the glass so I give it high fives with my finger. Got a second one last month and same thing. They have outgoing ‘personalities’; my hospitality ambassadors and my socialite super stars. I’m thinking of promoting them to etiquette consultants.
 

AphonopelmaTX

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Fact: Tarantulas do not have a true brain.
A true brain would give them the capacity to act on more than just instinct. Instead, they have a primitive central nervous system that allows them to do just enough to survive - eat, burrow/climb, find moisture, molt.
In response, I would have to ask a series of rhetorical questions. How do you define what a true brain is? The tarantula brain has the same anatomy as any other spider. It is one organ made up of two interconnected regions called the supra and sub esophageal ganglion. So why would a spider such as a tarantula be considered as not being able to have the capacity for more than instinct while a jumping spider of the genus Portia exhibits problem solving when considering they both don't have "true brains?" Another example would be the octopus. An octopus has a distributed nervous system and can be said not to have a true brain if comparing to a mammalian brain. But yet, it is well known an octopus has an impressive capacity for learning.

The probable capacity of a tarantula's intelligence isn't readily seen in captivity since they are not allowed to come into situations where it would be needed. If one were to observe a male tarantula in the wild during the mating season, I'm sure many would start to question whether tarantulas are truly without intelligence or something more than just instinct. A wandering male exhibits spacial awareness, memory, and problem solving as it navigates the terrain in search of a female. When I first saw a wandering male tarantula in the wild, I practically had to throw out all assumptions I had on tarantula brain power. :)
 
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QuinnStarr

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In response, I would have to ask a series of rhetorical questions. How do you define what a true brain is? The tarantula brain has the same anatomy as any other spider. It is one organ made up of two interconnected regions called the supra and sub esophageal ganglion. So why would a spider such as a tarantula be considered as not being able to have the capacity for more than instinct while a jumping spider of the genus Portia exhibits problem solving when considering they both don't have "true brains?" Another example would be the octopus. An octopus has a distributed nervous system and can be said not to have a true brain if comparing to a mammalian brain. But yet, it is well known an octopus has an impressive capacity for learning.

The probable capacity of a tarantula's intelligence isn't readily seen in captivity since they are not allowed to come into situations where it would be needed. If one were to observe a male tarantula in the wild during the mating season, I'm sure many would start to question whether tarantulas are truly without intelligence or something more than just instinct. A wandering male exhibits spacial awareness, memory, and, problem solving as it navigates the terrain in search of a female. When I first saw a wandering male tarantula in the wild, I practically had to throw out all assumptions I had on tarantula brain power. :)
Ah! This is the kind of debate and questioning I enjoy.

I can’t speak for much other than what I’ve learned scouring the boards and binging Tom Moran so you’ll have to excuse my lack of sources there.

I wouldn’t necessarily call a male tarantula looking for a mate “intelligence” regardless of the behaviors it exhibits, although I can see why some might. Would spatial awareness not be instinctual to them at that point? It’s literally life or death - fight or flight. It’s not like they’re buying Spooder Lite and using cheesy pickup lines - they approach a female to mate and hopefully don’t get munched in the process. This is especially exhibited in GBB’s where the female sometimes tends to chomp the male before he even gets a chance for insertion.

I’m sure a tarantula could figure it’s way out of a maze if you stuck it in there long enough but my understanding of everything I’ve read about tarantulas has said “primitive central nervous system”. True brains, as far as I know, are defined as something along the lines of “with the ability to perform complex reasoning and emotional processing”, which I don’t think any spider can do. They can’t love you, they can’t be trained out of their instincts like my dogs and the raw rib-eye analogy, and I strongly doubt you could Pavlov them into thinking “bell = feeding time” (although I may have to try this and see how it works).
 

AphonopelmaTX

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Ah! This is the kind of debate and questioning I enjoy.

I can’t speak for much other than what I’ve learned scouring the boards and binging Tom Moran so you’ll have to excuse my lack of sources there.

I wouldn’t necessarily call a male tarantula looking for a mate “intelligence” regardless of the behaviors it exhibits, although I can see why some might. Would spatial awareness not be instinctual to them at that point? It’s literally life or death - fight or flight. It’s not like they’re buying Spooder Lite and using cheesy pickup lines - they approach a female to mate and hopefully don’t get munched in the process. This is especially exhibited in GBB’s where the female sometimes tends to chomp the male before he even gets a chance for insertion.

I’m sure a tarantula could figure it’s way out of a maze if you stuck it in there long enough but my understanding of everything I’ve read about tarantulas has said “primitive central nervous system”. True brains, as far as I know, are defined as something along the lines of “with the ability to perform complex reasoning and emotional processing”, which I don’t think any spider can do. They can’t love you, they can’t be trained out of their instincts like my dogs and the raw rib-eye analogy, and I strongly doubt you could Pavlov them into thinking “bell = feeding time” (although I may have to try this and see how it works).
When it comes to male tarantulas appearing to operate on more than instinct when in search of a mate, it is impossible to explain what I'm talking about. It really is something you would have to see for yourself to understand. You know that situation when you look at video or even a photo of a gorilla (or any other animal) in a zoo or in the wild and you can just tell by looking at its eyes that something is going on in its head, like it is figuring something out? How do you explain that intuition to someone? That is what I am trying to say about wild male tarantulas. When you see it, it really looks like they are trying to figure things out, but I can't explain it in a way where someone will make an attempt to debunk it without the influence of their own bias.

It is funny you bring up tarantulas in figuring out mazes, because that experiment and the results were published in a journal I can't remember right now. I will have to come back and add the citation so you can have a read yourself. I'm not going to give away spoilers. ;)
 

QuinnStarr

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@QuinnStarr 747 wanted me to pass this on to you.

View attachment 404858
HIGH EIGHT LITTLE BUDDY

When it comes to male tarantulas appearing to operate on more than instinct when in search of a mate, it is impossible to explain what I'm talking about. It really is something you would have to see for yourself to understand. You know that situation when you look at video or even a photo of a gorilla (or any other animal) in a zoo or in the wild and you can just tell by looking at its eyes that something is going on in its head, like it is figuring something out? How do you explain that intuition to someone? That is what I am trying to say about wild male tarantulas. When you see it, it really looks like they are trying to figure things out, but I can't explain it in a way where someone will make an attempt to debunk it without the influence of their own bias.

It is funny you bring up tarantulas in figuring out mazes, because that experiment and the results were published in a journal I can't remember right now. I will have to come back and add the citation so you can have a read yourself. I'm not going to give away spoilers. ;)
I might be a stubborn old lady but I am always open to being proven wrong. I'd love to read at some point! If you know who wrote it or the journal, I'd love to look it up for an after-work read!
 

James Johnson

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Some notes on this thread:

Sentience is the ability to feel. With the exception a few very archaic animals (jellyfish, coral, etc), all animals are capable of this. Consciousness is what you might be thinking of, as that title is given to less than a dozen animal species, and is the way we experience life.

Pavlovian conditioning is something that can be exhibited by plants. I seriously doubt Ts can't.

Instincts are very weird. Although we can obviously see it does exists, as beings with some of the most limited instinctual feelings, it's hard for us to understand what they feel. However, we have an idea that although they may be heavily inclined to do something because of instinct, they are still technically choosing to do so. Instincts aren't muscle reflexes.

"
"How do you know this? You've been a spider in your past life? Or you just assuming?"
This response right here tells me everything I need to know about you. You're here to push your anthropomorphized beliefs rather than let yourself be educated on what is known about tarantulas."

I take offense with this line as it throws people debating with your ideas under the bus. They're just asking for the source, and it'd be appreciated if you actually do. It's certainly not welcoming a non-toxic debate, but I digress.

I agree with all of @AphonopelmaTX 's points, and have even found their sources.

Punzo, Fred. "Learning and localization of brain function in the tarantula spider, Aphonopelma chalcodes (Orthognatha: Theraphosidae)." Comparative Biochemistry and Physiology Part A: Physiology 89.3 (1988): 465-470.

Punzo, Fred. "Reversal learning and complex maze learning in the spider Aphonopelma hentzi (Girard)(Araneae, Theraphosidae)." BULLETIN-BRITISH ARACHNOLOGICAL SOCIETY 12.4 (2002): 153-158.

Take this points as you will, I'm not here to lead this debate.

From,
Someone who has never handled their tarantulas and never will.
 

Venom671

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they can’t be trained out of their instincts like my dogs
I have successfully trained my Ts to sit and wait for days, then i give them a treat. Once i give them a treat, they drop the command of sit and wait. They do it better than my Australian Shepard too
 
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QuinnStarr

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Some notes on this thread:

Sentience is the ability to feel. With the exception a few very archaic animals (jellyfish, coral, etc), all animals are capable of this. Consciousness is what you might be thinking of, as that title is given to less than a dozen animal species, and is the way we experience life.

Pavlovian conditioning is something that can be exhibited by plants. I seriously doubt Ts can't.

Instincts are very weird. Although we can obviously see it does exists, as beings with some of the most limited instinctual feelings, it's hard for us to understand what they feel. However, we have an idea that although they may be heavily inclined to do something because of instinct, they are still technically choosing to do so. Instincts aren't muscle reflexes.

"
"How do you know this? You've been a spider in your past life? Or you just assuming?"
This response right here tells me everything I need to know about you. You're here to push your anthropomorphized beliefs rather than let yourself be educated on what is known about tarantulas."

I take offense with this line as it throws people debating with your ideas under the bus. They're just asking for the source, and it'd be appreciated if you actually do. It's certainly not welcoming a non-toxic debate, but I digress.

I agree with all of @AphonopelmaTX 's points, and have even found their sources.

Punzo, Fred. "Learning and localization of brain function in the tarantula spider, Aphonopelma chalcodes (Orthognatha: Theraphosidae)." Comparative Biochemistry and Physiology Part A: Physiology 89.3 (1988): 465-470.

Punzo, Fred. "Reversal learning and complex maze learning in the spider Aphonopelma hentzi (Girard)(Araneae, Theraphosidae)." BULLETIN-BRITISH ARACHNOLOGICAL SOCIETY 12.4 (2002): 153-158.

Take this points as you will, I'm not here to lead this debate.

From,
Someone who has never handled their tarantulas and never will.
Fair points, and many valid. Absolutely.

RE: Pavlov and plants - I had no idea. They didn’t exactly cover Palvovian techniques with plants in my Psych classes. I will gladly rescind my thoughts on that after some reading about it and still possibly try this with mine someday.

Consciousness is the word I, and others, was searching for. Appreciate the correction.

As for this bit:

- "How do you know this? You've been a spider in your past life? Or you just assuming?"
This response right here tells me everything I need to know about you. You're here to push your anthropomorphized beliefs rather than let yourself be educated on what is known about tarantulas."

I take offense with this line as it throws people debating with your ideas under the bus. They're just asking for the source, and it'd be appreciated if you actually do. It's certainly not welcoming a non-toxic debate, but I digress. - (formatting isn’t working on my phone, apologies for the weird way of marking a full section)

I don’t see that as asking for sources. I see that as a sarcastic, incredulous question meant to incite. I’m glad to debate any day of the week, especially when it challenges my beliefs and could potentially teach me something. I don’t take kindly to people being sarcastic when others are trying to be educational or share experiences. Note throughout this thread that I kept pretty much out of it, save one comment I think, until that comment was made. If I misread tone via text, then I will back down but it did not read, and still does not read, as asking for sources to me.
Think of people discussing something - say the topic is about how terrestrial tarantulas molt in general (barring some weird ones that are on their sides or standing upright) - and one says “My mother kept tarantulas and said they usually molt on their backs” and someone fires back with “Yeah? She say that because she’s always on HER back?” It reads much the same way from my end. Incredulous and downright troll-y towards someone who was only giving their experience on the matter.

That said, I’ll stay out of these discussions until I’ve had a chance to review the sources you provided and see if I can’t find some others. Like I said previously, all I know is what I’ve read here on the boards and what I’ve gathered from watching Tom Moran - neither of which are scientific journals.
 

QuinnStarr

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I have successfully trained my Ts to sit and wait for days, then i give them a treat. Once i give them a treat, they drop the command of sit and wait. They do it better than my Australian Shepard too
You have a couple pet rocks, don’t you? 😂
 

QuinnStarr

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Yes indeed lol it goes in balance with my dog who is the polar opposite. Although 28 fossorials is probably not a couple 😂
I aspire to have 28 fossorial tarantulas someday.
I’m getting my third soon 😂
 

greeneyedelle

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Sentience is the ability to feel. With the exception a few very archaic animals (jellyfish, coral, etc), all animals are capable of this. Consciousness is what you might be thinking of, as that title is given to less than a dozen animal species, and is the way we experience life.
"Consciousness is subjective experience or awareness. It is more basic than sentience, which requires awareness that involves feeling, that is, experience with a hedonic tone." -David DeGrazia

Potayto, potahto, James, I think we're on the same page ;)
 
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