Paralyzed spider?

[egyptiancrow]

Theres too many people to reply to,
but in jumping spiders there are multiple patterns with DKS ive seen

1) hanging from a thread, nest or on the bottom paralyzed (often with one or two legs sticking out)
2) erratic movement near-constantly
3) frozen and staring up.

I call this stargazer dks. I just had a girl pass away from it :'( i will upload a video and link it so you can see what i mean. She only had erratic movement when i moved her. sometimes its less obvious than this girl. at first inside her enclosure she just looked like she was looking ahead. but i could tell right away it was odd. she moves her pedipalps and front legs a tiny bit but she stays paralyzed.

So no, dks does not require constant movement.
DKS can and often involves paralysis. OF COURSE it could be old age but when the post is made under "Paralyzed spider" I made the assumption the person posting had deemed the spider to be paralyzed. And an old spider can get DKS and pass that way, too.

Ive raised hundreds of spiders and seen thousands more. I help people with DKS constantly.
Its totally possible for it to be old age but i was offering a reason for a PARALYZED spider to pass away

videos of passionfruit, rip

http://imgur.com/a/OgPE0cI

Go up to a vet or physician or a top flight experienced paramedic, or Jaeger, Crawford or Vetter and show them a picture of a patient that is just lying there. No data, no vitals, no obvious indicators, then ask, "Do you think it is just dormant and will recover??"
"Doctors were invented to amuse the patient while mother nature heals the body." Dr. T. H.

So go ask mom. Or wait and see. She operates on her own time frame.

Theres no bloody vets or anything for flipping jumping spiders, my dude. theres plenty of people who are experts without having a physical building or even a degree. even the experts like david hill and wayne maddison arent necessarily experts in health issues for pet jumping spider.

 

[Setsunadiava]

Theres too many people to reply to,
but in jumping spiders there are multiple patterns with DKS ive seen

1) hanging from a thread, nest or on the bottom paralyzed (often with one or two legs sticking out)
2) erratic movement near-constantly
3) frozen and staring up.

I call this stargazer dks. I just had a girl pass away from it :'( i will upload a video and link it so you can see what i mean. She only had erratic movement when i moved her. sometimes its less obvious than this girl. at first inside her enclosure she just looked like she was looking ahead. but i could tell right away it was odd. she moves her pedipalps and front legs a tiny bit but she stays paralyzed.

So no, dks does not require constant movement.
DKS can and often involves paralysis. OF COURSE it could be old age but when the post is made under "Paralyzed spider" I made the assumption the person posting had deemed the spider to be paralyzed. And an old spider can get DKS and pass that way, too.

Ive raised hundreds of spiders and seen thousands more. I help people with DKS constantly.
Its totally possible for it to be old age but i was offering a reason for a PARALYZED spider to pass away

videos of passionfruit, rip

http://imgur.com/a/OgPE0cI

Thank you for the lengthy reply, this is what I need, I need to talk to other people who have arachnid pets, who are more experienced and may know more than what I do. I’m just going to try and make her as comfortable as I can in her last days.
Passionfruit looks like she as a good girl. I’m sorry for your loss

 

[Biollantefan54]

Theres too many people to reply to,
but in jumping spiders there are multiple patterns with DKS ive seen

1) hanging from a thread, nest or on the bottom paralyzed (often with one or two legs sticking out)
2) erratic movement near-constantly
3) frozen and staring up.

I call this stargazer dks. I just had a girl pass away from it :'( i will upload a video and link it so you can see what i mean. She only had erratic movement when i moved her. sometimes its less obvious than this girl. at first inside her enclosure she just looked like she was looking ahead. but i could tell right away it was odd. she moves her pedipalps and front legs a tiny bit but she stays paralyzed.

I don’t think dks is the problem, as you said, paralyzed spider may make you think of dks but dks just seems like a catch all term for “the spider is acting weird and dying”. Based on the OP’s new reply, this just sounds like old age still. I don’t think dks is the culprit or anything the OP did caused this to happen. Idk but to me dks being thrown around whenever a spider is dying just reminds me of the whole SADS stuff that was so big a while back with Avicularia

 

[Setsunadiava]

I don’t think dks is the problem, as you said, paralyzed spider may make you think of dks but dks just seems like a catch all term for “the spider is acting weird and dying”. Based on the OP’s new reply, this just sounds like old age still. I don’t think dks is the culprit or anything the OP did caused this to happen. Idk but to me dks being thrown around whenever a spider is dying just reminds me of the whole SADS stuff that was so big a while back with Avicularia

if it is old age it’s much easier to accept. Nothing I can do but let her die with grace. And hope she isn’t in pain.

 

[egyptiancrow]

Thank you for the lengthy reply, this is what I need, I need to talk to other people who have arachnid pets, who are more experienced and may know more than what I do. I’m just going to try and make her as comfortable as I can in her last days.
Passionfruit looks like she as a good girl. I’m sorry for your loss

whether its an elderly or has dks, i always mix some pure white sugar into their drinking water and soak a qtip to give them a drink. My girl settled down and slept before passing away instead of being stuck in this awful positioning. My elderly spiders also appreciate the drink. They always refuse to eat as they know itll be wasted but do seem to feel more comfortable with a drink. She was a very good girl I am sorry for yours too

I don’t think dks is the problem, as you said, paralyzed spider may make you think of dks but dks just seems like a catch all term for “the spider is acting weird and dying”. Based on the OP’s new reply, this just sounds like old age still. I don’t think dks is the culprit or anything the OP did caused this to happen. Idk but to me dks being thrown around whenever a spider is dying just reminds me of the whole SADS stuff that was so big a while back with Avicularia

I get what youre saying but ive been actively collecting recounts of DKS all year long in jumping spiders and recording about it. If I had the means to a lab i would be using it Unfortunately the options are do nothing or try to do what i can to learn about it, and i am choosing the latter.

 

[ForTW]

Ive raised hundreds of spiders and seen thousands more. I help people with DKS constantly.

Thousands, in true Spider world is like....a good year? Two or three sacs of an african Ctenidae?

I call this stargazer dks.
So no, dks does not require constant movement.
DKS can and often involves paralysis.

Is there any scientific paper to Look at?

 

[Wolfram1]

Why do we always need to be so nitpicky when the information is helpful?
Yea sure we have long since come to the conclusion that DKS doesnt exist in spiders, but rather that one of the symptoms, Dyskinesia, the erratic uncontrolled movements, can be observed.

@egyptiancrow this post sums it up properly if you are interested: https://arachnoboards.com/threads/dyskinesia-in-tarantulas.324687/

At any rate, you clearly know what you are talking about when it comes to jumping spiders at least, weather you call it DKS or the more correct term Dyskinesia is really not that important, thanks for the info!

 

[egyptiancrow]

Thousands, in true Spider world is like....a good year? Two or three sacs of an african Ctenidae?

I in no way have to prove myself to literally anyone,
but when i said thousands, i dont mean like 2000. i mean like 50-100,000. =_= could you possibly lay off? especially on a post about someones passing pet? if youre that desperate to play mental olypmics message me for goodness sake.

Is there any scientific paper to Look at?

where are the published papers for tarantulas with dks, mantises with dks, mantises with "black goo" and vomiting issues?
where are the papers about camel spiders need exercise or millipedes needing flake soil? Most information in small hobbies like exotic pet keeping ones are unfortunately left by the wayside by "real scientists". Especially pet keeping. Most good studies about inverts are usually if they are PESTS.

I had a pet smooth spider beetle and i couldnt find a damn thing about them besides pest information and how to get rid of them. Boy lived beyond what little i could find for a life expectancy. Some information you literally have to dig up yourself. A ton of hobbies are like that. People constantly ask me "where can i study all the jumping spider species easily?" and there is no answer. There is no easy accessible information in almost every regard. Some studies are even locked behind paywalls.

What did you want me to tell you? If there was going to be a paper, i would be the one to write it. No one else invests as much time that ive found in this topic- specifically with jumping spiders. But even though people keep asking me to write up books and guides i genuinely dont have time. I have 9 egg sacs and im expecting at least a dozen more.

Now if you are desperate to debate, take it off this post, its in such poor taste seriously.

 

[Wolfram1]

where are the papers about camel spiders need exercise

There is accutally some great new information on them, seems like that was a myth. But yes we learn if someone figures out a good method and go from there.

if you are interested:

Breeding solfugid(Rhagodes sp.)

Hello all. I have had solfugids for 4 years. Before long,I will succeed in the captive breeding of Rhagodidae(Rhagodes sp.) came from Egypt. I would like to share information on breeding.:D

arachnoboards.com

 

[ForTW]

I'd just be cautious about throwing around false Info.
The rest speaks for itself. Just keep in mind there are people working on jumpers for decades...i am sure they're glad you are the chosen one.

Regards, i'm out.

 

[CRX]

She has DKS. This is usually from a bad feeder or wild caught feeder, or pesticide or chemical like soap, cleaner, incense, smoke getting into her enclosure. There is a 99.9999% fatality, that is to say, if any of them have ever survived, i have never seen it. I know some larger spiders can come back from dks but i have never seen a jumper do it.

I always make sure to sanitize everything and avoid wild feeders, as well i dont put lotion or soaps on my hands or in the enclosure, im not sure if you did anything that would be an obvious cause or not, i do believe sometimes DKS is caused by a bacteria infection or buildup in the spider with no discernable cause. Even with my very careful husbandry i have had one spider pass away from DKS out of my 300. I believe it was bc i left a piece of paper towel in for 4 days. she had built her molt hammock with it and i didnt want to tear it up and mess with her molting. But... better safe than sorry. now i pull them all out every two days.

Sorry for your loss

I'm not disagreeing with all the people who said you're wrong, but I want to remind everyone that DKS is a real thing and a real threat. I lost my entire collection to it several years ago.

 

[HeartBum]

I'm not disagreeing with all the people who said you're wrong, but I want to remind everyone that DKS is a real thing and a real threat. I lost my entire collection to it several years ago.

To lose an entire collection would heavily suggest that pesticides or something airborne would be responsible, no? Or some sort of parasite which had spread throughout the collection…

 

[CRX]

To lose an entire collection would heavily suggest that pesticides or something airborne would be responsible, no? Or some sort of parasite which had spread throughout the collection…

I tend to agree. I was never able to find out for sure what caused it. But I also could not rule out the infected (or pesticided whatever) feeder factor. It was not only spiders, I had scorpions that died as well.

 

[The Snark]

I'm trying to understand the incipient and peoples responses here.

For the past week she has been completely still like dead but her legs are still straight and not curled in like a dead spider’s would. She also moves her front legs slowly sometimes. She had been slipping off the side of her enclosure for the past few days before she stopped moving.

Okay. The described symptom, completely still, is Bradykinesis. A symptom, not the underlying condition, and the condition is indicated by a lack of movement. Dyskinesis is the opposite symptom, uncontrolled motor functions. Both symptoms stem from neuromuscular disorders. So the entire DKS discussion really isn't relevant.
Neuromuscular disorders is a large field of neurological conditions which in turn can have numerous causes and the cause and effect are extremely difficult or even impossible to accurately diagnose. In my case it took 30 years of sleuthing and guesswork.

I don’t think dks is the problem, as you said, paralyzed spider may make you think of dks but dks just seems like a catch all term for “the spider is acting weird and dying”

It obviously isn't the problem since the major compalint as described in the OP is Bradykinesis symptoms. Everything else aside, dyskinesis symptoms, typical, most common, is from inner ear dysfunction as typified by motion sickness. That is eliminated by arachnids not having that organ.

And then, most neurological conditions can only be treated symptomatically. Underlying causes, even if properly and accurately identified, are not usually directly treatable. Nearly all treatments are through the use of drugs which most often attempt to interrupt or suppress the symptoms. Parkinson disease which produces dyskinesis would be a typical well known example which cannot be treated or reversed, only the symptoms can be controlled to varying degrees through drugs.

As an aside, the spider in the OP has bradykinesis. What are the causes of suppressed neuromuscular dysfunction? Anything the suppresses, restricts, retards, or otherwise interrupts the neurons that directly or indirectly governs the voluntary and or autonomic nervous system. So, several thousand diseases and conditions.

Thus my apparently insipid comment of providing what aid and comfort you can and letting mother nature take it's naural course.

 

[egyptiancrow]

I'm trying to understand the incipient and peoples responses here.



Okay. The described symptom, completely still, is Bradykinesis. A symptom, not the underlying condition, and the condition is indicated by a lack of movement. Dyskinesis is the opposite symptom, uncontrolled motor functions. Both symptoms stem from neuromuscular disorders. So the entire DKS discussion really isn't relevant.
Neuromuscular disorders is a large field of neurological conditions which in turn can have numerous causes and the cause and effect are extremely difficult or even impossible to accurately diagnose. In my case it took 30 years of sleuthing and guesswork.


It obviously isn't the problem since the major compalint as described in the OP is Bradykinesis symptoms. Everything else aside, dyskinesis symptoms, typical, most common, is from inner ear dysfunction as typified by motion sickness. That is eliminated by arachnids not having that organ.

And then, most neurological conditions can only be treated symptomatically. Underlying causes, even if properly and accurately identified, are not usually directly treatable. Nearly all treatments are through the use of drugs which most often attempt to interrupt or suppress the symptoms. Parkinson disease which produces dyskinesis would be a typical well known example which cannot be treated or reversed, only the symptoms can be controlled to varying degrees through drugs.

how can an adult spider who was previously fine for 8 months develope a neurological condition without a molt or any specific cause? ive only seen spiders with neurological disorders from no husbandry cause from birth.

 

[The Snark]

how can an adult spider who was previously fine for 8 months develope a neurological condition without a molt or any specific cause? ive only seen spiders with neurological disorders from no husbandry cause from birth.

I could list the top 10 or 20 or 50 possible causes. Or go into technical details of precipitating factors, biological and environmental. But I ask you to keep in mind every few minutes animals die by the billions, and many of those deaths never have the causes pathologically explained. Many of them can't be explained beyond some part of the system shut down for some reason. Maybe multiple factors added to age.

I prefer the native indian mindset combined with the wisdoms of the Upanishads. You two came together for a reason, kindred souls. You shared something beautiful and unique as you gave gifts to each other. Then she moved on and you both became more than if you has not had that momentary bond. Such is the way with every living being in any relationship of any nature. We are afforded an opportunity to go beyond 'self'.

 

[egyptiancrow]

I could list the top 10 or 20 or 50 possible causes. Or go into technical details of precipitating factors, biological and environmental. But I ask you to keep in mind every few minutes animals die by the billions, and many of those deaths never have the causes pathologically explained. Many of them can't be explained beyond some part of the system shut down for some reason. Maybe multiple factors added to age.

I prefer the native indian mindset combined with the wisdoms of the Upanishads. You two came together for a reason, kindred souls. You shared something beautiful and unique as you gave gifts to each other. Then she moved on and you both became more than if you has not had that momentary bond. Such is the way with every living being in any relationship of any nature. We are afforded an opportunity to go beyond 'self'.

ok but i would genuinely like it if you messaged me with those possible causes lol

 

[The Snark]

ok but i would genuinely like it if you messaged me with those possible causes lol

Let's keep it in the forum for the moment and analyze what you have given us so far.
First, was the cricket debilitated, crushed head or whatever. They are pretty powerful omnivores and can easily injure spiders.
Second, assuming the cricket didn't manage to injure the spider are you absolutely certain the cricket was clean and had never been around pesticides?
Second and a half, Pesticides are commonly neurotoxins and are very often persistant and pervasive. That is they remain in the environment and the animals they poison. The MAJOR issue is cumulative. Tiny, harmless trace amounts of toxins will accumulate in predators. Thus the animals they feed on may live long uneventful lives while the predators accumulate more and more toxins until they have ingested a lethal dose.
Next, are you certain of the age of the spider? They aren't long lived and past a certain point in their life times they begin to weaken. With arachnids some moms produce one egg sac and call it quits while some crank out 15 sacs or more over a period of a couple of years.
Next the spider was suffering from a neurological condition as noted in it "slipping off the side of it's enclosure". This is a prime indicator the medical profession has in their tool box during the initial assessment. Peripheral neurological response. Nerve damage or degeneration is most notable in the extremities, very typically loss of grip strength and autonomic grasping and motions, reflexes, aren't functioning properly. Salticids that have difficulty with surfaces they normally can negotiate have neurological issues. Claws aren't working correctly.
Next she was moving her front legs slowly. Combined with loss of claw function that sounds like hemiparesis. Ordinarily this neurological condition is on one side of the body indicating damage to one side of the brain. Do spiders suffer similar anterior-posterior? Possible. Or you possibly weren't able to accurately tell. And of course with salticids the rear two pairs of legs are much more powerful than the front. (Rear supplies most of the jumping, the front pair only the grasping.) Either way, my general guess here is rapidly progressing paralysis. Comparatively to the animals normal life span.

So paralysis a tentative diagnosis. The causes? Pesticides, age, an acquired condition such as cancer, a birth deficiency or defect that only caused issues later on in the animals life, genetic defects, a combination of any of the aforementioned, or unknown trauma.

 

[ForTW]

Jäger explained in a Heteropoda maxima Podcast very well, why growth is limited.

The aorta (very well visible at some spiders) supplies the legs with haemolymph. This enables the movements due to a pressure build up.
What if it just gets weaker and weaker. This can result in a death curl. Here we have a specimen that is still alive. This can look like some sort of paralysis aswell.

I had an idolomantis diabolica loosing a lot that was stuck in this stage for two weeks! No death curl, just very saggy.

 

[Setsunadiava]

This is a weird update! Sadako moved while I was out today! She is in different, more comfortable looking position than where I last saw her. Did the honey water help?!