Pandinus species

[Collin Clary]

This I know. What I am saying is that to assume that importers of this species are actually obtaining permits and not smuggling is optimistic at best. Most legal importers are not hobbyists, and are not selling to hobbyists.

Respectfully, I don't think you quite understand the scale at which they're being legally imported. According to the CITES Trade Database 13,000 came in during a single shipment last year.

Sure, some people have probably brown boxed them. But to suggest that most specimens in the hobby were imported illegally is completely ludicrous when so many are being imported legally. There's basically no incentive to do so when virtually any pet store in the country is capable of obtaining some.

 

[Ian14]

P. imperator have been CITES listed since 1995. You can absolutely buy wild caught animals legally. To trade in CITES listed animals importers/exporters simply need an additional (relatively inexpensive) permit. This is easily verifiable on the CITES website, which also keeps records of legal imports/exports.

Currently P. imperator are being imported from the Congo, rather than where they were originally collected in Ghana, Togo, and Benin. It has been recommended that trade with Togo to be opened up because they are sustainably ranching the scorpions. (See the attached PDF below.)

According to CITES.org, there are no export quotas for Pandinus spp from Congo. The only current 2021 export quotas listed state 0, and there is nothing listed from Congo.
With respect, the document that you attached is from 2016, so 5 years out of date.
I work sometimes with UK Border Force and as far as I am aware, Pandinus cannot currently be legally imported.

 

[Dry Desert]

According to CITES.org, there are no export quotas for Pandinus spp from Congo. The only current 2021 export quotas listed state 0, and there is nothing listed from Congo.
With respect, the document that you attached is from 2016, so 5 years out of date.
I work sometimes with UK Border Force and as far as I am aware, Pandinus cannot currently be legally imported.

Well Bugz UK quite recently had a legal import of P.imperator. It was delayed at customs due to the paperwork being a photo copy, which was not excepted. The paperwork was eventually sorted and the shipment went ahead.

 

[goliathusdavid]

Respectfully, I don't think you quite understand the scale at which they're being legally imported. According to the CITES Trade Database 13,000 came in during a single shipment last year.

Sure, some people have probably brown boxed them. But to suggest that most specimens in the hobby were imported illegally is completely ludicrous when so many are being imported legally. There's basically no incentive to do so when virtually any pet store in the country is capable of obtaining some.

Thank you for this information. I owe you an apology. Clearly my info on this is outdated, and for that I am sorry. Due to some of my previous work with confiscated inverts I have become used to assuming that most wild caught CITES listed species being sold are illegally imported. This data definitively shows however that that is not the case with P. imperator. I appreciate you correcting me, and I will read up on the more recent situation.

 

[Ian14]

Well Bugz UK quite recently had a legal import of P.imperator. It was delayed at customs due to the paperwork being a photo copy, which was not excepted. The paperwork was eventually sorted and the shipment went ahead.

Interesting.
Because www.cites.org clearly states 0 export quota for this year.
And their website states they are captive bred.

 

[Collin Clary]

According to CITES.org, there are no export quotas for Pandinus spp from Congo. The only current 2021 export quotas listed state 0, and there is nothing listed from Congo.
With respect, the document that you attached is from 2016, so 5 years out of date.
I work sometimes with UK Border Force and as far as I am aware, Pandinus cannot currently be legally imported.

CITES actually doesn't necessarily establish or require quotas for listed species, it's generally up to each individual country. Here's some more information: https://cites.org/eng/resources/quotas/index.php

There are currently no trade quotas in place for Pandinus imperator in the DRC, meaning that they're not restricting trade. You can check the trade database yourself to confirm this.

I brought up the recommendation for Togo because it means that down the line we might eventually be seeing animals from those countries again.

 

[Dry Desert]

Interesting.
Because www.cites.org clearly states 0 export quota for this year.
And their website states they are captive bred.

The ones on Bugzuk website now are captive bred because of the paperwork screw up there was a waiting list for the ones being imported. They sold immediately after being listed on the site. There probably won't be any more for a while now, but with captive ones now being sold in the UK for £60/70 and the added problems with post Brexit import regs. I don't think exporters will go out of their way to import.

 

[Crom]

There's a ton of WC imperator being sold as "Dictator Scorpions ", even "Cave Clawed Scorpions (P. viatoris)" at Petco and LLL, Underground etc, and has been for the past few years. They are all 100% imperator, and are being sources from Cal Zoo Supply, who claims to have sourced them from the Congo, but that is fairly far away from their natural range. I know a guy that works for an importer in FL that got in a few thousand last year. There's quite a few circulating in the US hobby right now

 

[Dry Desert]

There's a ton of WC imperator being sold as "Dictator Scorpions ", even "Cave Clawed Scorpions (P. viatoris)" at Petco and LLL, Underground etc, and has been for the past few years. They are all 100% imperator, and are being sources from Cal Zoo Supply, who claims to have sourced them from the Congo, but that is fairly far away from their natural range. I know a guy that works for an importer in FL that got in a few thousand last year. There's quite a few circulating in the US hobby right now

We are talking about the import quotas for 2021, not a few years ago. There probably are quite a few circulating at the moment, a mix of captive bred and from the last Legal import 2019/2020.

 

[Crom]

Many of the animals in circulation are from imports last year or the years prior. Petco sells, buys more from CalZoo labeled as dictator (or viatoris now, maybe a new import). Unsure of this year's quota, but the past few years thousands have come into the country. Legality may be questionable if coming in labeled as a different species, however dictator is also CITES. Maybe that's why they are labeling them viatoris now..? Simeone possibly caught wind. It's also possible they're being farmed in Africa, ive heard a number of reports. Not many CB imperator are circulating, and certainly not at Petcos or large online retailers. It would be ridiculous for CalZoo to be labeling them as dictator or viatoris if they're being captive bred. The only time I've seen captive bred imperator at Petco is when they've gotten them from Arctic Rodent, who has bred them from my understanding, or just had a bunch of captive born from WC females.

 

[Crom]

My friend who worked for the large importer said they got in thousands last year, but labeled as imperator. Maybe not a legal import, but id imagine it was, and good luck getting thousands of them past customs. And most large business importers wouldn't want to risk losing their business over some illegal scorpions that are already here in mass

 

[Tleilaxu]

Had a successful molt. No changes otherwise.

 

[Tleilaxu]

Remaining two molted successfully. They all have cool burrow systems in their enclosures now.

Nothing else to report.

@Dylan Keife

I found this for you,

Pandimus Viatoris Scorpion by Reptile Empress - MorphMarket USA

Scorpion Morph: Pandimus Viatoris, Sex: Female, Maturity: Subadult, Birth: 2021, Prey: Live Cricket, Price: $75, Seller: Reptile Empress, Last Updated: 10/24/21, ID: #pv01.

www.morphmarket.com

As my scorp she is not mature even after the molt so we can definitely rule out Pandimus viatoris