Pandinus dictator vs. imperator

Galapoheros

ArachnoGod
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I've heard very contradicting opinions from people that dealt with lllreptile, I don't recall ever dealing with them. Yeah the "underweight" issue would absolutely be a flag to me also, but I don't think that if they came from Africa, somebody would clean them up enough so that 'no' red dirt could be seen. I don't think that kind of person would be that savvy but maybe. They don't all come from areas that have red dirt of course but that was common back in the day. My best guess is that somebody didn't take care of their imperators, lost interest and sold or traded with lllreptile and a company like that doesn't have time and, unfortunately, the interest to take care of the animals they are responsible for, ...just looking for a $. Personally, I wouldn't give a diddly, you have them, bought them, blow the guilt propaganda and try to breed if you want.
 

Daniel Edwards

Arachnoknight
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Sep 23, 2017
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I'm excited to own them and look forward to trying out the more intact male with my female after I fatten them up and warm them up a bit more! Thanks for all the imput!
LLL Reptile sells good animals (albeit hungry...) and have not had a bad order yet.
 

Siderum

Arachnopeon
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Good morning,
I wanted to add to this discussion. First of all, the petshop owners and importers have nothing to do with mislabeling P. imperator as P. dictator. That would be the exporters.

Second, I would like to see some scientific literature posted to back up the morphological differences. In my opinion, nearly all of these "dictators" are "imperators". In the last three weeks I have purchased 3 "P. dictator" at local petshops. Upon bringing them home and looking at them with my cheap macro cell phone camera setup, they are P. imperator. P. imperator have 3 trichobothria in a row emanating from the base of the ridge on the ventral claw manus. P. dictator have two. Take a look below at the pics of one of my females:
 

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Daniel Edwards

Arachnoknight
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Good morning,
I wanted to add to this discussion. First of all, the petshop owners and importers have nothing to do with mislabeling P. imperator as P. dictator. That would be the exporters.

Second, I would like to see some scientific literature posted to back up the morphological differences. In my opinion, nearly all of these "dictators" are "imperators". In the last three weeks I have purchased 3 "P. dictator" at local petshops. Upon bringing them home and looking at them with my cheap macro cell phone camera setup, they are P. imperator. P. imperator have 3 trichobothria in a row emanating from the base of the ridge on the ventral claw manus. P. dictator have two. Take a look below at the pics of one of my females:
Thanks for the input. Good close up pics! Do you have any further info on this info on how to distinguish them? I agree on the part that its the exporters labeling.
 

Siderum

Arachnopeon
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Daniel,
Take a look at figure 10 in the paper I posted. On the bottom (ventral) side of the manus (large part of claw) there should be three trichobothria--basically these are sensory hairs in sockets. They are tiny. In the right light in person, with magnification, you can see a "halo" around them because of the sockets. In P. imperator, there are three in a row near the ridge close to the base where the movable finger meets the base of the manus. In P. dictator, there are 2. Also look at figures 13 and 17. On the ventral side of the tibia (2nd large segment) of the palps, you should see about 30 trichobothria for P. imperator, fewer than 25 for P. dictator. I don't have access to some of the papers that have other morphological differences. If you know it's between P. imperator and P. dictator, using the ventral manus trichobothria count is reliable, to my knowledge.
 
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Daniel Edwards

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Daniel,
Take a look at figure 10 in the paper I posted. On the bottom (ventral) side of the manus (large part of claw) there should be three trichobothria--basically these are sensory hairs in sockets. They are tiny. In the right light in person, with magnification, you can see a "halo" around them because of the sockets. In P. imperator, there are three in a row near the ridge close to the base where the movable finger meets the base of the manus. In P. dictator, there are 2. Also look at figures 13 and 17. On the ventral side of the femur (1st large segment) of the palps, you should see about 30 trichobothria for P. imperator, fewer than 25 for P. dictator. I don't have access to some of the papers that have other morphological differences. If you know it's between P. imperator and P. dictator, using the ventral manus trichobothria count is reliable, to my knowledge.
I didn't see the attachments, I see them now. Thanks!!! I'm going to inspect mine more!
 

Siderum

Arachnopeon
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And here is the ventral surface of the palps from a "dictator" that is P. imperator. 30+ trichobothria. No way it is P. dictator.
 

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Daniel Edwards

Arachnoknight
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In my previous retail experience working at a shop that carried about everything I could order and get away with... I never remember having issues identifying scorpions. Back then I assumed all were imperator. I ordered from 2000-2008 before getting out of it.
 

Galapoheros

ArachnoGod
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And here is the ventral surface of the palps from a "dictator" that is P. imperator. 30+ trichobothria. No way it is P. dictator.
You probably do have imperator, can you take a good dorsal pic? There would likely be no more dictators in pet stores by now, there was an illegal import quite a while ago and not likely to happen again any time soon. The manager at the pet store I found mine in said there was around 600 of them illegally imported, that's pretty thin over the US. It was in the news, how long ago was that?, seems like a year ago or so. Unless they were captive bred and sold to a pet store or somebody got tired of keeping theirs, I don't see how any pet store could be selling dictators now, if that's what they are. I know what I have aren't imperators, but I can't be 100% they are dictators either, I just know they aren't imperators. But I do have at least a couple of 100 imperators also so I'm used to seeing the differences. The pectines on what have been called dictators look very different from imperators also. And there is much heavier dorsal granulation on what has been called dictator here than on imperator. But I'm curious to see a dorsal view of your scorpion.
 

Daniel Edwards

Arachnoknight
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You probably do have imperator, can you take a good dorsal pic? There would likely be no more dictators in pet stores by now, there was an illegal import quite a while ago and not likely to happen again any time soon. The manager at the pet store I found mine in said there was around 600 of them illegally imported, that's pretty thin over the US. It was in the news, how long ago was that?, seems like a year ago or so. Unless they were captive bred and sold to a pet store or somebody got tired of keeping theirs, I don't see how any pet store could be selling dictators now, if that's what they are. I know what I have aren't imperators, but I can't be 100% they are dictators either, I just know they aren't imperators. But I do have at least a couple of 100 imperators also so I'm used to seeing the differences. The pectines on what have been called dictators look very different from imperators also. And there is much heavier dorsal granulation on what has been called dictator here than on imperator. But I'm curious to see a dorsal view of your scorpion.
I will post up to date pics within the day. Thanks!
 

Galapoheros

ArachnoGod
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Oh I was hoping siderum would post pics of his scorpions but the more the better!
 

Siderum

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Oh I was hoping siderum would post pics of his scorpions but the more the better!
I will do so this evening if I can. My two girls aren't yet settled (out wandering about) but will become pet holes shortly.
 

Galapoheros

ArachnoGod
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Okay, here are some dorsal shots. She wouldn't hold still but these were the best I could get tonight.
Yeah I'd say that's imperator but the lighting is lacking some in the pics. Also, dictator has carinae/keels on the chela, imperators don't. I don't see any keels running along the pinchers there, do you see any?
 

darkness975

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Chela seem reddish to me but could be the lighting.

The last time I order from lllreptile, which was way before I knew better, I received an Emperor (assuming it was a P. imperator) that had a missing stinger and it died the next day.
They only refunded the cost of the animal, not the shipping.

Never went back.
 
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