Once a pokie starts showing ventral leg colors do they stay the same as it grows?

edesign

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Subject sums it up. Wondering because I mixed up my regalis and vittata slings a little while back. They're now about 2" and one has started to show white bands on the front legs which would seem to indicate vittata (i think, having a hard time finding an illustration or id chart with them. Edit: Nm...they're not white). The ventral leg id charts I've seen show regalis having yellow up front.

Also have a near-5" spider that I purchased as a rufilata that I'm being told is an ornata and based on the leg patterns along with carapace and folio I agree. But if leg colors/patterns change once they've shown up I dunno.

So yeah, stay the same as they grow or change? I found plenty of threads about when they start to show but haven't come up with one about this. Yet :p
 
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Poec54

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Your 2 inchers are still growing and developing patterns and colors, be patient. Weren't these labeled when you bought them? There's a picture online that shows the ventral side of some Poec legs. Regalis develops a pale belly band as juveniles (slings don't have it). The best way to ID vittata is by the marking on the femur of the 4th set of legs. There's a black stripe (not band) ventrally that runs from end to end of the femur; no other Poec species has this. Find that comparison pic instead of guessing.

Can you post shots of your 'rufilata'?
 

edesign

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No patience issue, just curious if they change pattern or color one they start showing because the one has white markings now and if they stay that color as they grow it's probably the vittata. They were labeled. I rehoused them in to similar looking tanks. I did not label the tanks, don't usually need to, just had a lapse of attention when moving tanks around and can't remember which was which lol. I had started using different colored water bowls to at least track which tank is which. It's not a big bother not knowing right now but since the one finally started showing colors I was hoping it might give an indication.

I've seen more id charts lately than I can shake a stick at. Long familiar with the regalis having a white band, it hasn't shown up on either one yet. The leg chart that I think you're referring to does have vittata (pederseni, as you know) and it shows it as all white ventral leg markings. I got confused earlier about whether it was white or not. One should not mix engineering with spider ID'ing ;)

Thanks for the vittata indicator. It is also noted in the illustrated leg id chart I found (http://fugleedderkopper.blogspot.com/2008/02/poecilotheria-simon-1885-billedengle.html?m=1). The third and fourth set of legs are still all black so maybe next molt.

I'll post photos of the other spider after work, I'll be home in about an hour and a half. I had asked the seller about the origins and haven't read his reply that I received this morning yet. Thanks.
 

edesign

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I read the seller's reply. They said it looks like rufilata to them and had attached the well-known carapace ID chart asking with a photo of a rufi. Looking at it again I'm inclined to say it does look like rufi (EDIT: and now I'm not so sure, I'll rely on those who are more experienced with them) but the other day I looked at a bunch of photos of both species and came to ornata conclusion. Someone had also mentioned that the folio on rufis was more diamond shaped but I haven't tried to verify that, seemed accurate from photos I saw but I know you have a ton of pokie experience.

Click for full size

IMG_20160706_215005.jpg

The leg banding on the femur of leg IV is mostly yellow with a thinner black band which means ornata.
IMG_20160713_215116.jpg
 
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edesign

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Oh, here's the dorsal view with flash, no color correction. There other one I had adjusted the color as the white balance was inaccurate and color depth lacking (love my phone, absolutely loathe the camera). Still trying to get a good photo with my "real" camera.

IMG_20160706_214940~2.jpg

The leg id key that I used also mentioned that rufis have a blue iridescent sheen to them on the femur and pedipalps. Mine doesn't as far as I've seen but I haven't been able to get a good look since learning of it. It also indicated that ornata is white striped on the rear legs and rufilata isn't, jives with the photos I've seen and in this ventral pattern collection (you can also see the blue iridescence on the rufi pedipalp), http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/foru...theria.html?nocache=1468346299675#post3136493

These two photos are from prior to the most recent molt.
IMG_20160504_202953.jpg

IMG_20160505_215244.jpg
 
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viper69

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I've only owned P rufi. Camera's play tricks on the eyes, so my opinion is only that. Based on the pics above, I would not say that's a rufi. Or if it is, a very blandly colored one compared to what I have owned. Mine weren't incredibly bright, just your standard colors. Just my 2cents.

On the ventral side of a P rufi. The blue on the legs is extremely obvious. There's no need to shine a light or move your head around to different angles to see it.
The blue is as bright as a P met.
 

Venom1080

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thats not a rufilata. they have some blue on the underside of their legs, on the first joint so to speak.
 

edesign

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That's good info, thanks. Combined with the leg striping on the femur it helps to confirm it's not rufilata since color in photos is tricky depending on white balance accuracy, monitor calibration, compression, etc. Still hoping to get some accurate photos with my good camera. I have a nice IPS monitor that I bought a good calibrator for for photo editing so I can ensure that it at least looks right on my end lol.

Any opinions about the carapace pattern? Are either species' folio different (more angular, blobular)?
 

Poec54

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It doesn't have the rufilata angry eyes on its carapace, either.


Those 'angry eyes' vary in Poecs, some individuals in a species have them others don't. It's far from being a diagnostic tool.
 

edesign

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Poec, are you saying that in reference to the contrast of the carapace pattern? If so maybe that's why I'm wishy-washy on the carapace id. Which way are you leaning based on the photos?
 

Poec54

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Poec, are you saying that in reference to the contrast of the carapace pattern? If so maybe that's why I'm wishy-washy on the carapace id. Which way are you leaning based on the photos?

Carapace patterns can vary in species, and some are similar to each other in different species, but what I was referring to is the dark mask around the eyes. I never ID Poecs by their carapace. For one thing the carapaces of males are usually different (less contrast) and that starts prior to maturity in some species. Some species are obvious (like regalis with the belly band), but whenever they're not, leg banding in the best method.
 

Thistles

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Those 'angry eyes' vary in Poecs, some individuals in a species have them others don't. It's far from being a diagnostic tool.
Legs are the best, but I've never seen a rufilata without angry eyes. OP asked about the carapace. I answered. Legs had already been addressed.
 

edesign

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I thought legs were the most definitive. I appreciate the info everyone. The dark around the eyes was what kept throwing me off. Ornata it looks to be then unless there's something I'm missing.

Summary for anyone skimming through, ornata due to:

Leg banding matches ornata
Lacking blue sheen on pedipalps and femurs which is found on rufilata

Guess I still need to find a rufilata. Paid $25 for this one at 3" on sale. It'll likely be a while before I see a deal like that again:greedy: Otoh I didn't pay full price for something I wasn't looking for:headphone: It's definitely a looker either way.
 

Poec54

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There's several 'forms' of regalis (it has the largest range in the genus), a black form of striata, & a white form of formosa. Obviously carapace markings will vary on these. I have a couple subadult female tigrina with carapaces that are almost all black, with a purple iridescence; they have a little white stripe from the foveal groove to the back of the carapace, and that's it for light-colored markings.
 

advan

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I read the seller's reply. They said it looks like rufilata to them and had attached the well-known carapace ID chart asking with a photo of a rufi. Looking at it again I'm inclined to say it does look like rufi (EDIT: and now I'm not so sure, I'll rely on those who are more experienced with them) but the other day I looked at a bunch of photos of both species and came to ornata conclusion. Someone had also mentioned that the folio on rufis was more diamond shaped but I haven't tried to verify that, seemed accurate from photos I saw but I know you have a ton of pokie experience.

Click for full size

View attachment 215777

The leg banding on the femur of leg IV is mostly yellow with a thinner black band which means ornata.
View attachment 215778
The spider in your pictures is P. ornata. I would steer clear of the seller in the future. If you can't easily ID those two species at 5", you should not be selling Poecilotheria and makes me question all other spider's IDs they are selling.
 

edesign

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The spider in your pictures is P. ornata. I would steer clear of the seller in the future. If you can't easily ID those two species at 5", you should not be selling Poecilotheria and makes me question all other spider's IDs they are selling.
Thank you advan. I had inquired about where they got them from but they didn't say in their reply although they basically said that they ID'd them themselves and it was what they sold it as despite my comment about the leg banding.

EDIT: Also, to clarify, I bought this spider at 3". Might've been a little bigger. Regardless, I provided him with some of the photos here so he saw the same thing as you. It's molted twice in my care to gain 1.75" which would work out to almost an inch per molt so maybe it was a little bigger than 3" at first. Once shortly after receiving and again maybe 3-4 weeks ago.

I think people might be surprised by who I bought it from. He posts regularly in the FS forum and has an online store. Mostly good reviews (4/5 here on AB) or I'm blissfully unaware of an ongoing issue. The rest of my order was a female A. geniculata, two N. coloratovillosus (site said 1.5" for $25, main reason I ordered, received two 3/4" slings...seller said it was a typo, miscommunication with the webmaster with the N. chromatus. Size has been corrected on the website since. Offered a freebie or discount on next order for the mixup), and two G. pulchra slings (1/2"). The genic looks like the other unsexed one I have that I am leaning towards male. Coloratovillosus seem correct, well, one escaped the first night I got them :( Haven't seen it since. And the pulchras could be, no reason to doubt it yet.
 
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edesign

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I don't have any ventral photos from when I received it before it webbed up and molted. Just a couple dorsal like this from right after rehousing after receiving (not the best quality):
rufi at first.jpg
 

viper69

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I don't have any ventral photos from when I received it before it webbed up and molted. Just a couple dorsal like this from right after rehousing after receiving (not the best quality):
View attachment 215840
That's the best image you've posted. That's definitely not a P. rufi. P rufi's are much more colorful at that size.
 
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