New member with Avic. avic. questions

[YagerManJennsen]

I think if a person mentions why it's not a good idea, they should at times mention why. I try, but don't always do it! It doesn't help a person like the OP to know "don't do this/do this" right? hahah. That's part of the reason why I asked you.

Pricing isn't an issue for the Ts health, only the owner's wallet. So it's not a factor I consider initially. But it may be the first factor someone else considers. In short, I don't use it to tell someone "don't do X", at least without telling them why

Cross ventilation. Avics really require good air exchange as moist/stagnant air in captivity will kill them. In the USA, this has been achieved by cross ventilation (side to side). I've previously posted my thoughts on how dry sub/cross ventilation became the defacto standard to raising Avics whewre as the Europeans do not necessarily use the same approach. It's speculation mind you. I posted it this year, so it shouldn't be a hard post to find.

ExoTerras will work fine. I point out to you the European model of a glass cube, that has been used successfully for a very long time. It has ventilation at the bottom front and the top. usually with strips of a silver/grey metal grating. Hagen, the maker of ExoTerra and a Germany company, modeled their product after the European design so often used.

The one thing both approaches have in common is a decent amount of air exchange allowing the Avics to thrive and reproduce.

Perhaps @Chris LXXIX can drop in a link for us. They are super cheap that's for sure. But no one makes them in the USA really, as they are often found in the EU, often on eBay.

Then I stand corrected. Thank you sir!

I still like the Sterilites though. Just a personal preference just because of the pricing (we don't have a lot of extra cash to drop on a fancy new exo terra) exo terras styke housings look really good though , I plan on using one for a pokie or Psalmopoeus

 

[Chris LXXIX]

Perhaps @Chris LXXIX can drop in a link for us. They are super cheap that's for sure. But no one makes them in the USA really, as they are often found in the EU, often on eBay.

" Ask and it will be given to you " <--- full devoted & pious 'Papa Ciccio' (Pope Francis) mode turned "on"

http://www.ebay.it/itm/Glas-Terrari...702675?hash=item54397c5613:g:B-QAAOSwAuZX5TWX

I can guarantee that those arboreal cage/s work pretty well and are very cheap, but I do understand that, considering the shipping price, custom taxes, and last but not least since we are talking about glass, the risk of receive a broken item, the U.S keepers concern about.

 

[cold blood]

Cross ventilation. Avics really require good air exchange as moist/stagnant air in captivity will kill them. In the USA, this has been achieved by cross ventilation (side to side). I've previously posted my thoughts on how dry sub/cross ventilation became the defacto standard to raising Avics whewre as the Europeans do not necessarily use the same approach. It's speculation mind you. I posted it this year, so it shouldn't be a hard post to find.

ExoTerras will work fine. I point out to you the European model of a glass cube, that has been used successfully for a very long time. It has ventilation at the bottom front and the top. usually with strips of a silver/grey metal grating. Hagen, the maker of ExoTerra and a Germany company, modeled their product after the European design so often used.

The one thing both approaches have in common is a decent amount of air exchange allowing the Avics to thrive and reproduce.

Perhaps @Chris LXXIX can drop in a link for us. They are super cheap that's for sure. But no one makes them in the USA really, as they are often found in the EU, often on eBay.

Good points.

But there seems to be more than just the venting difference. As they have more air exchange one could agrue with the top being ventilated heavily, they also keep theirs damper than we do. Our style of cross ventilation works best when things are kept predominantly dry. Both approaches obviously work, even though they are pretty different.

I think this is a cause of much of the confusion in the hobby, especially with avic info. People always complain about conflicting info....well if half the info you get is from a European using the enclosures they prefer, they will say to keep the substrate damp, and spray occasionally...because with their enclopsures they like, that's what you need to do. Then the other half (from across the pond) is stressing cross ventilation, minimal to no top ventilation and dry substrate, it can get confusing, because no one in their searches is taking into consideration the style and type of enclosure that the writer is using.

While both ways are right, if the wrong enclosure is used, results will be the same...a death curl. Who knows, most of these care sheets you see stressing ultra high humidity and spraying may have gathered their info from keepers in Europe where those conditions are required with their enclosures.

 

[viper69]

Good points.

But there seems to be more than just the venting difference. As they have more air exchange one could agrue with the top being ventilated heavily, they also keep theirs damper than we do. Our style of cross ventilation works best when things are kept predominantly dry. Both approaches obviously work, even though they are pretty different.

I think this is a cause of much of the confusion in the hobby, especially with avic info. People always complain about conflicting info....well if half the info you get is from a European using the enclosures they prefer, they will say to keep the substrate damp, and spray occasionally...because with their enclopsures they like, that's what you need to do. Then the other half (from across the pond) is stressing cross ventilation, minimal to no top ventilation and dry substrate, it can get confusing, because no one in their searches is taking into consideration the style and type of enclosure that the writer is using.

While both ways are right, if the wrong enclosure is used, results will be the same...a death curl. Who knows, most of these care sheets you see stressing ultra high humidity and spraying may have gathered their info from keepers in Europe where those conditions are required with their enclosures.

See, I've never used one of their setups before, nor seen one in person. So certain things I'm going on by YouTube and some of our members.

Such as:

1. Do their setups have more air exchange? That's not been scientifically measured. I'm not totally sure, but most of the Euro tanks I've seen have a thin strip of metal w/some holes across the top. If anything, I would think their setups are more likely to retain moisture than what I use (cross ventilation, side to side holes).

2. Do some Euro breeders using glass cubes end up keeping their Avics as dry as we often do? I don't know.

@Storm76 @louise f @Chris LXXIX

What's your impression of how Avics are usually kept out there when using these "glass cubes"? In YouTube videos, dark substrate doesn't necessarily mean it's very moist, hard to tell at times.

What is clear is both systems seem to work so far.

 

[KezyGLA]

I use Exo Terra Nano for my avics 2x minatrix and my new purpurea. I have also used them for my A. avic many years ago.

I lost my A. avic due to dehydration. Dry sub, waterbowl and misting didnt work great. I left for work for a few days to come back to it dead. I believe the top screen let too much humidity escape(this was before I canged the lids by applying acrylic).

Now I have the acrylic with holes glued underneath the screen I add a little moss and keep a fan running to create better air flow. I would rather a custom acrylic enclosure with cross-vent but this is pricey. The set up I am using has been working without flaw so far.

All of my other arboreals are in ETs too and there has been no problems with them either. I know Avics are more delicate in that way though.

 

[viper69]

Now I have the acrylic with holes glued underneath the screen

You kept the ExoTerra screen lid and fit acrylic underneath the entire lid? I didn't think there would be enough for that.

W/the holes in the acrylic, how are you keeping the Avics in the Exo's, in terms of sub - dry/moist etc /waterbowl etc?

 

[Chris LXXIX]

@Storm76 @louise f @Chris LXXIX

What's your impression of how Avics are usually kept out there when using these "glass cubes"? In YouTube videos, dark substrate doesn't necessarily mean it's very moist, hard to tell at times.

What is clear is both systems seem to work so far.

I can talk for me only (and people I know here in Italy with 'Avics') and I have a thing to say in regards of those cheap, glass arboreal enclosures, that, no doubts, IMO works good.

I don't view those, as far as the ventilation is concerned, so good for 'Avics' like the general consensus when the "Avics and Cross ventilation" issue is discussed, require. Not even mention that the "Up/Down" opening can damage certain 'Avics' web-home, since some of that genus love to create the "home" above, if I'm not wrong.

I use those enclosures for genus Psalmopoeus, they are IMO perfect for African arboreal 'Baboons' and so forth. Anyway, I know people with 'Avics' housed in those kind of enclosures and they, as far as I know, have no issues.

At the end of the day I'm not an 'Avic' fan, as I've said often here, so I don't have first hand experience with those T's and those glass enclosures to share, sadly... but I say why not, if someone can buy one.

 

[KezyGLA]

You kept the ExoTerra screen lid and fit acrylic underneath the entire lid? I didn't think there would be enough for that.

W/the holes in the acrylic, how are you keeping the Avics in the Exo's, in terms of sub - dry/moist etc /waterbowl etc?

Yes, I glue a very thin sheet acrylic/flexiglass on the underside and pierce losts of thin holes in the mesh centre of the screen lid. I leave a boarder of about 3" from the sides of the lid in order to stop climbing upside down. This keeps humidity in and reduces risk of fall.

I keep them dry sub, water dish and put a little moss at the bottom of the cork bark and spray that a little every day.

The fans dry out the enclosures but keep the air moving. I just add more moisture when things are getting dry.

Easier to make a dry enclosure humid than it is to make a stuffy, wet one dry.

 

[cold blood]

I use Exo Terra Nano for my avics 2x minatrix and my new purpurea. I have also used them for my A. avic many years ago.

I lost my A. avic due to dehydration. Dry sub, waterbowl and misting didnt work great. I left for work for a few days to come back to it dead. I believe the top screen let too much humidity escape(this was before I canged the lids by applying acrylic).

Now I have the acrylic with holes glued underneath the screen I add a little moss and keep a fan running to create better air flow. I would rather a custom acrylic enclosure with cross-vent but this is pricey. The set up I am using has been working without flaw so far.

All of my other arboreals are in ETs too and there has been no problems with them either. I know Avics are more delicate in that way though.

See, when I see most (not all of course) European cages, they seem to always have a screen top of sorts, not necessarily the same screen tops we see on the exo terras, but basically screening, which is why I always assumed they were adding more moisture than I was with my enclosures.

Is there a way to tag all Europeans...hehe.

 

[Abaddon749]

 

[Abaddon749]

@viper69 and @cold blood Here is the new setup. Replaced the screen top with acrylic and drilled 36 holes in it. We also put the plants up top. All that is missing is the spider. What do you guys think?

 

[viper69]

@viper69 and @cold blood Here is the new setup. Replaced the screen top with acrylic and drilled 36 holes in it. We also put the plants up top. All that is missing is the spider. What do you guys think?

It's a good start. I'd remove the rock. It's a fall hazard should it happen.

I'd move that water bowl to the front to make it easier, like where the rock is.

I think the back looks nice. You could run w/that see how the T does. OR, you could fill in the left middle (looking above bottom pic) more. Maybe lean some cork slab, add in some plants. I think it's a great start.

I'd probably try to make the entire region that is behind those 2 tiny flowers more dense with plants, cork tubes/flats.

When you look from above, your Avic will have no reason to come forward, and really nothing to walk on to move forward into those bare regions, except the ceiling or the sub. Avics are arboreal after all.

if you are broke for the time being, you could put your T in there. I've seen people do less and their Avic did fine honestly.

 

[Abaddon749]

Good points.

But there seems to be more than just the venting difference. As they have more air exchange one could agrue with the top being ventilated heavily, they also keep theirs damper than we do. Our style of cross ventilation works best when things are kept predominantly dry. Both approaches obviously work, even though they are pretty different.

I think this is a cause of much of the confusion in the hobby, especially with avic info. People always complain about conflicting info....well if half the info you get is from a European using the enclosures they prefer, they will say to keep the substrate damp, and spray occasionally...because with their enclopsures they like, that's what you need to do. Then the other half (from across the pond) is stressing cross ventilation, minimal to no top ventilation and dry substrate, it can get confusing, because no one in their searches is taking into consideration the style and type of enclosure that the writer is using.

While both ways are right, if the wrong enclosure is used, results will be the same...a death curl. Who knows, most of these care sheets you see stressing ultra high humidity and spraying may have gathered their info from keepers in Europe where those conditions are required with their enclosures.

So now I must ask the inevitable question: based on my plexiglass and top ventilation holes, should I keep the substrate somewhat moist or stick to bone dry substrate with just the water bowl?

 

[viper69]

So now I must ask the inevitable question: based on my plexiglass and top ventilation holes, should I keep the substrate somewhat moist or stick to bone dry substrate with just the water bowl?

I'd go dry. I'd also observe your T in doing so, and adjust accordingly, ie see it drinking a lot, hanging over the bowl etc.

Moist is such a relative term, so I don't try to advise people on what is moist vs too moist etc

 

[louise f]

See, I've never used one of their setups before, nor seen one in person. So certain things I'm going on by YouTube and some of our members.

Such as:

1. Do their setups have more air exchange? That's not been scientifically measured. I'm not totally sure, but most of the Euro tanks I've seen have a thin strip of metal w/some holes across the top. If anything, I would think their setups are more likely to retain moisture than what I use (cross ventilation, side to side holes).

2. Do some Euro breeders using glass cubes end up keeping their Avics as dry as we often do? I don't know.

@Storm76 @louise f @Chris LXXIX

What's your impression of how Avics are usually kept out there when using these "glass cubes"? In YouTube videos, dark substrate doesn't necessarily mean it's very moist, hard to tell at times.

What is clear is both systems seem to work so far.

I must say i never had problems with those glass enclosures. In mine there's ventilation in the top. As you said a metal stripe with holes. And there's a metal stribe in the bottom too at the front.
I use them for both avics and other aboreals. Such as pokies and psalmos.
There's plenty of vents. And they breed well in those too.

I prefer those instead of exoterra. They are Cheaper and does not take so much space. And they suits perfect for all needs of aboreals.

Imo the best

 

[Andrea82]

I use a glass enclosure for my T.violaceus, my Avics are not big enough for one.
I think the airflow is good in these enclosures due to warm air going up out of the top strip, thus sucking fresh air from the front bottom strip.
My enclosure has a sliding panel of glass, to be opened by sliding it sideways instead of up/down.
It is not so much screen what is on top, more panes of metal with holes in them.
Just my two cents as an European

 

[viper69]

I must say i never had problems with those glass enclosures. In mine there's ventilation in the top. As you said a metal stripe with holes. And there's a metal stribe in the bottom too at the front.
I use them for both avics and other aboreals. Such as pokies and psalmos.
There's plenty of vents. And they breed well in those too.

I prefer those instead of exoterra. They are Cheaper and does not take so much space. And they suits perfect for all needs of aboreals.

Imo the best

I wasn't suggesting there's an issue w/the glass cubes, I'd use them if I could them myself. I was curious how Europeans seem to be keeping Avics in them in terms of humidity. Are they keeping them w/dry sub? Or a bit more moist?

 

[viper69]

I use a glass enclosure for my T.violaceus, my Avics are not big enough for one.
I think the airflow is good in these enclosures due to warm air going up out of the top strip, thus sucking fresh air from the front bottom strip.
My enclosure has a sliding panel of glass, to be opened by sliding it sideways instead of up/down.
It is not so much screen what is on top, more panes of metal with holes in them.
Just my two cents as an European

I've haven't seen that type of metal used here in the USA for critters. I'm sure someone has, but generally scree is what is used here for a few different reasons unrelated to critters.

 

[Chris LXXIX]

I wasn't suggesting there's an issue w/the glass cubes, I'd use them if I could them myself. I was curious how Europeans seem to be keeping Avics in them in terms of humidity. Are they keeping them w/dry sub? Or a bit more moist?

Some 'Avics' Italian keepers keeps those on a more slightly moist environment than the "bone dry and water dish" but with a particular attention to air recycle/ventilation, others only with the water dish.

 

[louise f]

I wasn't suggesting there's an issue w/the glass cubes, I'd use them if I could them myself. I was curious how Europeans seem to be keeping Avics in them in terms of humidity. Are they keeping them w/dry sub? Or a bit more moist?

Ohh hehe, sorry about that friend Once a week i moist the sub a little but not to much, and only when the females are going to make eggsacs and when they have eggsacs.

Other than that they just have their water dish, and if the sub gets too dry i water a little in the sub. Because we have very dry air here in Denmark.