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[viper69]

You do actually see it pop up on dart frog forums as well. It gets met with more vitriol and harsh words than what you wrote here

The the OP, if you DON'T KNOW FOR SURE what species you were mating then please don't let them enter the hobby - freeze any egg sacks that get produced

I agree you do. I don't get the impression it's on there as much as here..do you? I was attempting to make a point, albeit not a clear one.

 

[moricollins]

I agree you do. I don't get the impression it's on there as much as here..do you? I was attempting to make a point, albeit not a clear one.

I probably see it as often there as here, actually. When it gets started on dart frogs it goes much deeper for people. Dart froggers tend to keep track of what import their frogs came from originally, who produced them, and what year they were imported, amongst other details

 

[CJJon]

That was covered in the same article, point 2.2:
"The English words "variety", "form", and "strain" or their equivalents in the other languages must not be used for the word "cultivar" when fulfilling the Articles of this Code nor in translation of this Code."

Great example here of someone learning on the fly via Google to keep up with a person that has an actual degree in the field. Priceless.

 

[dangerforceidle]

Alright, so every bodies got they opinion but no one can answer my question of <edit> they are. Cool, idk how anyone is supposed to know whether they are creating a "monster" if the taxonomy is so messed up no one knows what they are looking at. There have been reports of all 3 of the "species" or morphs all over Chile Bolivia and Argentina. Who is keeping them in check we may never know. I have time to make my choice in the mean time I will continue to research facts and take opinions and rumors into consideration. didnt mean to reignite the fire for 2013, definitely something that needs more solid research.

Yes I watched the video that was sent to me and it still has no solid proof.
Nature wont stop the species from mingling especially in the parts of the country where the different species are close together, just like with the pink toe and versicolor tarantulas. So in that sense without further proof how can we tell if we have gotten "true rosea" or a different color rosea or a hybrid?
As I understand we do want pure species for the hobbiest to be certain of what they get themselves into to begin with, cool, got it. But how do you tell? Your just supposed to msg someone on a forum and believe that they have a true rosea? How can we tell? Could be putting ourselves right back in this position, except with help from a stranger?

I would like to thank you guys for the information, and taking the time to reply

It is your responsibility as a keeper to know what you have. Read the papers where the species is described, find a key to follow, learn the physiological characters used to determine difference between species. In some cases this won't be possible, because the species has not yet been described and no key yet exists. Grammostola sp. North, Grammostola sp. Concepcion -- these are not described species. Any organism with "Genus sp. Location/colour" is not yet properly described. Those examples could be a new species, or they could be one of the existing species that is described, just a new locality. Until that research is done, they are 'unknowns.'

If you do not know what you have, you should not be breeding them. Regardless of what may or may not happen in the wild. It is irresponsible. If no key exists and no one can identify them? Don't breed them. If you are doubtful that the retailer incorrectly identified the spider, do not breed it. Breeding is not a requirement for participating in the hobby.

 

[CJJon]

May not have a degree but I am a scientist at heart. So I question everything if it doesnt have an answer we ask a different question pertaining to the same thing.
Next we look at the facts: they are pretty wide spread.
There have been sightings everywhere in the area.
Nature doesnt stop because it will mu sd day up the trade.
No one knows for sure if these tarantula are different or the same. Only person who claims to have seen proof they all come from the same egg sac, no one believes because he stopped collecting tarantulas?
All of this is down to a bunch of hard headed "science enthusiasts" (and or actual scientists) bickering and trying to change each others minds.
You just told me there is no sound answer or solid proof. You cannot tell me what they are. Yet you still make yourself right at home jumping down my throat. And through all of this I'm still grateful you would take your time to help try to explain your side.
We want pure breeds for the shear fact that others will know what they are getting and no other hybridization will happen.
But if I went out and bought a T. How am i supposed to go that's not a true rosea for breeding. IF NO ONE KNOWS WHAT THEY LOOK LIKE. Sure the packaging may say so but who says that that's correct? Rosea are getting harder to find I'm not trying to RUIN the hobby I'm trying to help save it. Unless you can export rosea(which also could be a hybrid) than help me instead of trying to destroy my dreams, and belittle me.

You really are showing your ignorance and bias here (and other posts). You are dealing with legit scientists here who have advanced degrees in science fields. Your logical fallacies are quite painful to read.

Why do you insist on adding to the confusion and muddying of the genetic lines of pet-trade tarantulas? Do it right and get some breeding stock from a trusted breeder and have at it. There is a wealth of information here if you are willing to stop with the childish ideas and resistance to sound advice. Don't be that guy or gal.

 

[SkUdlZ]

You really are showing your ignorance and bias here (and other posts). You are dealing with legit scientists here who have advanced degrees in science fields. Your logical fallacies are quite painful to read.

Why do you insist on adding to the confusion and muddying of the genetic lines of pet-trade tarantulas? Do it right and get some breeding stock from a trusted breeder and have at it. There is a wealth of information here if you are willing to stop with the childish ideas and resistance to sound advice. Don't be that guy or gal.

You made your point I have heard your plea what must be done will be done. I still dont know what tarantulas so I have no Hopes of breeding. I have to find a whole other set. I get it. I'll start over but do not try and stop me from doing this I'm going to breed tarantulas more informed now obviously. But without me how will anyone else learn from my mistakes this will now show up on google and when someone like me comes searching for answers maybe they will avoid the same mistake.
I am speaking with a lot of scientists and still not everyone is agreeing no one has answers. I have to take into account everything before just ending lives. You do not need to be rude or blunt I'm not upset that you are telling me information I need to know I'm upset that I'm an i"ncompetent breeder" and "ruining the hobby" because months of research brought me none of this info til now I'm am idiot?
Okay I've read your other posts too ya know, your just rude in general. This danger force has made the same points without referring to me as incompetent. So Cj thank you for your input but if you cant tell me what tarantula species these two are you can leave now.

 

[CJJon]

No one is telling you not to get into breeding. We are trying to help you do it right.

I meant no offence, that is on you.

 

[Chebe6886]

At the end of the day you bred one of the slowest growing and most available Ts in the hobby... also not sure what it is exactly and you’ll have a 1000slings that have almost no value, are a pain to house/feed.... have fun

 

[viper69]

I probably see it as often there as here, actually. When it gets started on dart frogs it goes much deeper for people. Dart froggers tend to keep track of what import their frogs came from originally, who produced them, and what year they were imported, amongst other details

I trust you, I haven't seen it, but again I tend to be in threads not involved w/that. As for tracking, I know all about that practice, you have to do that w/frogs in my opinion.

With Ts. I received A. huriana from German stock. I can tell you that weren't exactly like the huriana I saw here 15 yr ago.....WHo knows what you are getting!

 

[Reezelbeezelbug]

<snip>
If two specimens breed with each other and produce off-springs that are healthy and fertile enough to reproduce further, then those two specimens ought to be of the same species (because of genetics).

What about jungle corn snakes that are a cross of corn snakes and king snakes and can breed and produce viable offspring? Sorry if I'm stirring the pot, I'm just not confident that statement can be applied globally to all organisms, and without proper research can be necessarily applied to tarantulas.

 

[viper69]

Oh boy Testy has been quite testy in this thread, he even used bold font- that's just so rude

This is why it's important to inform and not belittle.
Show me the proof that they are different species please, I am trying to learn not ruin anyone's "views" on spider lovin'.
Male tarantulas will travel miles to find a mate and as I understand they live relatively close together. Who is gunna stop them from bumping uglies and making "hybrids"
Please show me where this info is found so I can learn.


As I understand there has been a rumor for years but no solid proof...

In that reply he wasn't belittling you.

Two "species" whose genetic makeups are sufficiently similar that their off-springs are healthy and fertile enough to reproduce, should be the same specie.

What anyone thinks doesn't matter, it's the body of knowledge called science that matters

And without actual genetic tests, the ability to have healthy and fertile offspring is the next best gauge to assess the genetic similarity between specimens.

Except it's not proof of anything.

The desire to keep specimens in the hobby pure sounds like pureblood supremacism to me.

Except it isn't you are delusional.

discouraging producing these so-called "hybrids".

Your use of so-called, is quite ignorant along virtually everything you have posted in this post.

doesn't really give you the moral high ground to demand euthanising the sacs, does it?

It's not morals, again you are delusional. It's about SCIENCE - maybe you should read more science to appreciate it.

no one knows what they are looking at

I understand your frustration. I don't know the 5 or so specimens people have mentioned to spot them out except for one if I looked carefully.

It is because of this fact, not knowing, that people of sane mind and logical thought don't breed unknowns together.

You still have no answer to if they cross breed in Chile

As no one seems to know this (assumption) knowledge the safest course of action is not to breed UNKNOWNS.

I am speaking with a lot of scientists

This is great, contact arachnologists.

What about jungle corn snakes that are a cross of corn snakes and king snakes and can breed and produce viable offspring? Sorry if I'm stirring the pot, I'm just not confident that statement can be applied globally to all organisms, and without proper research can be necessarily applied to tarantulas.

Well they must be the same species , his response is one of the dumbest I've seen in my life on any forum. A complete of scientific thought.

 

[Liquifin]

Honestly, I don't think it was anyone's intention to create hybrids on this thread. Yes, while @SkUdlZ possibly accidentally created hybrids, it wasn't his attention in the first place so we can't just bash him repeatedly. I understand that this person didn't do a thorough research before breeding since there is not a lot information about the Chile species. My first post may seem a bit abrasive or harsh to the OP, but I was just trying to inform, so sorry if it seems out of context. I understand that everyone is heated, but no need to drag on any longer.

Proving facts, opinions, or ways is great and all, but it's not going to do any good if the someone or other person is not willing to accept, convey, or acknowledge the other side of the stand. At this point we're just throwing everything out, which is not going to do any good besides creating a long debate that'll go nowhere.

Pretty sure, the OP is already aware now and understands the issues, so there really isn't a need to drag on this thread longer than needed.

 

[SkUdlZ]

Honestly, I don't think it was anyone's intention to create hybrids on this thread. Yes, while @SkUdlZ possibly accidentally created hybrids, it wasn't his attention in the first place so we can't just bash him repeatedly. I understand that this person didn't do a thorough research before breeding since there is not a lot information about the Chile species. My first post may seem a bit abrasive or harsh to the OP, but I was just trying to inform, so sorry if it seems out of context. I understand that everyone is heated, but no need to drag on any longer.

Proving facts, opinions, or ways is great and all, but it's not going to do any good if the someone or other person is not willing to accept, convey, or acknowledge the other side of the stand. At this point we're just throwing everything out, which is not going to do any good besides creating a long debate that'll go nowhere.

Pretty sure, the OP is already aware now and understands the issues, so there really isn't a need to drag on this thread longer than needed.

Thank you, it was not really your msg that was abrasive I didnt like being categorized and repetitively bashed into the bad corner. I had good intentions behind my actions and if this forum helps someone in the future I am happy to take a hit.
I did month of research on this subject and found no definite way to identify. So I asked the previous owners and they assured they were "rose hairs" what kind they didn't know what I was talking about. Yes it was irresponsible for me to jump the gun but with lack of information and inexperience I left the station to learn on my way. I need your guys help not be told I'm ruining the hobby.
So once again thank you for taking your time to reply, and for all of the different views

Ps. She could be molting soon anyways she hasn't been eating since conception.

 

[Chebe6886]

People love hearing about successful breeding projects... as long as you know what your breeding and have a plan for the slings I think most are all for it. Personally as much as I would love to see the process I just wouldn’t want a TON of Slings to care for and I could hardly give away

 

[SkUdlZ]

People love hearing about successful breeding projects... as long as you know what your breeding and have a plan for the slings I think most are all for it. Personally as much as I would love to see the process I just wouldn’t want a TON of Slings to care for and I could hardly give away

I already have a plan for distribution. Gotta start the rest of it over. One step closer though

 

[moricollins]

I already have a plan for distribution. Gotta start the rest of it over. One step closer though

Sigh.

 

[SkUdlZ]

Anyone have a reputable site for buying rosea? I have to start over and everywhere I've looked are sold out, thought they were common, so where can I get a proper breeding pair?
Also what is with the sigh? I just said I'm going to do as suggested is nothing good enough for you guys? Good lord man. Where can I find them?

 

[moricollins]

Anyone have a reputable site for buying rosea? I have to start over and everywhere I've looked are sold out, thought they were common, so where can I get a proper breeding pair?
Also what is with the sigh? I just said I'm going to do as suggested is nothing good enough for you guys? Good lord man. Where can I find them?

How is anyone supposed to know that's what you meant when your post was:

I already have a plan for distribution. Gotta start the rest of it over. One step closer though

This post doesn't say to me "I'm going to go find a set of rosea that are the same species from the same source and breed them." It says "I know how I'm going to distribute my offspring"

 

[SkUdlZ]

An attempt for a positive attitude for a gloomy task, I guess??
It means distribution is not a consern. The rest, meaning the rest of the process, I must start over. If anyone actually read my previous posts I made it clear that i understood what I had to do.
Ps Still cannot find any online. Thank you.

 

[moricollins]

An attempt for a positive attitude for a gloomy task, I guess??
It means distribution is not a consern. The rest, meaning the rest of the process, I must start over. If anyone actually read my previous posts I made it clear that i understood what I had to do.
Ps Still cannot find any online. Thank you.

Cheers! Sincerely, good luck on your endeavours