Neoholothele incei communal FAIL :/

[MetalMan2004]

Just for giggles I did an AB search for the term "regalis communal." The first firsthand mention of a pokie cannabilization doesn't come up until halfway down page four of the results. It is a striata, not a regalis. Everything previous to this is a bunch of "successful" communals and a few people saying its a bad idea with no evidence.

So basically I had to weed through four and a half pages of people mostly defending regalis communals as okay to find the first actual report of a pokie death from a communal. To say that the info is right at your fingertips is far from correct.

Just a bit of help and information instead of saying "nope" and walking away goes a long way.

 

[Ellenantula]

@cold blood
+1

There's always gonna be some anomaly where someone has a successful communal set-up... at least for a while.
But I can't base my decisions based on anomalies, I'd rather play the safer odds whenever possible.

I don't really understand the lure of the communal set-up. As tiny slings -- fine (who wants a gazillion tiny condiment cups to deal with?)

But as they get bigger... I'd rather be able to focus on just one pokie at a time for feeding, water dish refills, maintenance, etc..
With my luck, instead of them all diving into their hidey places -- what if they all come shooting out of their enclosure like canon shots!!! (Yeah, I have an active imagination). lol

 

[Venom1080]

Well heck, give it a shot. I doubt it will work for very long, but hey it's not my spiders.

 

[viper69]

My communal of Neoholothele incei experienced a cannibalism today. I originally had 5 but I separated one from the communal and that one promptly died because I let its enclosure dry out too quickly. I had just rehoused the communal of 4 into a bigger cage about a week ago. I found a dead body today. :/ I quickly rehoused each one so they are now in their separate enclosures. I believe the cannibalistic behavior was brought on because they specimens are almost adults at 1.5-2".

In summary, this is not a communal species. If you want to do a communal, look into Monocentropus balfouri.

How often were you feeding Bob? Did some not get enough food perhaps?

 

[viper69]

Poki's aren't communal animals in the wild according to a scientist I know that has studied them in the wild.

Just because you can throw them in together, doesn't mean it's communal hahah. Maybe I'll start a communal Brachy setup...

 

[mconnachan]

I acknowledge all the posts regarding what @14pokies, @mconnachansaid and all the others, I was referring to what I have seen on YouTube, google search, and others, I bow down to superior knowledge, albeit said in the correct manner, as @Nightstalker47 post said in a manner that is appropriate. Thanks for all the comments, they are all accepted in a mature and reasonable fashion, I now know that P. Regalis are not a good sp. to be kept communally, if @14pokies had said it the way @Nightstalker47 had then all this would have been unnecessary.

 

[BobBarley]

How often were you feeding Bob? Did some not get enough food perhaps?

As often as they took it... Like 4 whole prekilled superworms week. I don't think the feeding was an issue. Oh well, from what I've read, balfouri has much more consistency.

 

[Trenor]

I'm pretty sure @CEC did a N.incei communal that is sporting at least two generations in it. I think he started out breeding his female and leaving the sack in with her when it hatched. I've not tried this species as a communal but I've seen a few that worked and a few that didn't.

Sorry to hear it went bad. At least you got them split up before the highlander moment.

 

[Philth]

I certainly had cannibalism with incei, as well as Heterothele, and other species that are commonly kept communally. That said I've kept 6 or 7 species of Poecilotheria to sub adult or sometimes adults before separating them with little to no cannibalism. I've literally raised hundreds of Poecilotheria like this. Those of you that are saying it doesn't work, how many species or times have you tried? And what do you think went wrong ?

Later, Tom

 

[14pokies]

That said I've kept 6 or 7 species of Poecilotheria to sub adult or sometimes adults before separating them with little to no cannibalism.
Later, Tom

What made you decide to eventually seperate them and what is your idea of little cannibalism? How many have you lost?

I have never raised any poecs "communally" unless you consider "co-habing" males with females for up to a week at a time for breeding a communal setup. I don't.. In every case both of there enclosures were left open inside of another larger enclosure that had cork slabs and or hollows as courting/mating surfaces and hides for the male incase the female tried to eat him..

I have never lost a Poec to anything other than females consuming the male during breeding, which is infrequent I'll give you that. I lost a few at once to a natural gas leak that killed most of my collection, including my first sac of P.miranda slings, a few MMs that I couldn't find a date for and a striata that I recieved that was eight years old when I acquired her.. She lived another year while in my care.

I haven't had any deaths do to anything I had any power to prevent compared to how ever many you have lost to cannibalism.. No matter how you slice it keeping them one per enclosure is safer..

*Edit*

Also is P.regalis one of the 6-7 species you raised communally with minimal losses?

 

[Philth]

What made you decide to eventually seperate them and what is your idea of little cannibalism? How many have you lost?
Also is P.regalis one of the 6-7 species you raised communally with minimal losses?

Yes, P. regalis was one of them. There's several reasons why I separate them when they get to sub adult or adult sizes. 1. Sales purposes 2. Breeding purposes 3. I'm just not a fan of keeping large adult spiders all crammed into a small cage. However I do think its a great, easy, fast, and fairly safe way to raise hundreds of Poecilotheria all at once.

Only twice have I ever witnessed cannibalism ( once with metallica, and once with tigrinawesseli ) and both occasions were the same night I transferred the group of spiders into new larger housing. Logic would say moving them into a new cage likely puts them out of sorts, since its new unfamiliar territory and causes them to become agitated or aggressive toward one another. Eventually they settled in and kept the peace from there on out. Could there be more cannablism that I just didn't see ? Sure, but that's all I've witnessed.

There are other "problems" with Poecilotheria communals such as size growth among individuals. There's always going to be a couple of alpha hogs that suck up all the food and grow much faster then others. I've had 4 inchers living in the same cage with little 1 inchers that were growing much slower. Even then , I still never saw the larger ones eating the smaller ones.

I think spiders living in close quarters and molting together may also cause some issues with missing legs and such as well. A group of spiders wont really respect the space of a fragile molting sibling when forced to live together.

These are all minor "problems" in my opinion though, and don't really justify claims of Poecilotheria communals ending with one big fat pokie. I often find these claims are made by people who have never tried, and just regurgitated what Rick you to say on this site all the time lol

Later, Tom

 

[CEC]

Yes, P. regalis was one of them. There's several reasons why I separate them when they get to sub adult or adult sizes. 1. Sales purposes 2. Breeding purposes 3. I'm just not a fan of keeping large adult spiders all crammed into a small cage. However I do think its a great, easy, fast, and fairly safe way to raise hundreds of Poecilotheria all at once.

Only twice have I ever witnessed cannibalism ( once with metallica, and once with tigrinawesseli ) and both occasions were the same night I transferred the group of spiders into new larger housing. Logic would say moving them into a new cage likely puts them out of sorts, since its new unfamiliar territory and causes them to become agitated or aggressive toward one another. Eventually they settled in and kept the peace from there on out. Could there be more cannablism that I just didn't see ? Sure, but that's all I've witnessed.

There are other "problems" with Poecilotheria communals such as size growth among individuals. There's always going to be a couple of alpha hogs that suck up all the food and grow much faster then others. I've had 4 inchers living in the same cage with little 1 inchers that were growing much slower. Even then , I still never saw the larger ones eating the smaller ones.

I think spiders living in close quarters and molting together may also cause some issues with missing legs and such as well. A group of spiders wont really respect the space of a fragile molting sibling when forced to live together.

These are all minor "problems" in my opinion though, and don't really justify claims of Poecilotheria communals ending with one big fat pokie. I often find these claims are made by people who have never tried, and just regurgitated what Rick you to say on this site all the time lol

Later, Tom

I think Poecilotheria is special in a way with this topic or maybe lots of species haven't been experimented enough with communal behavior. With Poecilotheria, it seems far more tolerance than communal.

Raising a communal in captivity is like a box of chocolates....
I agree Tom, although I have to believe you agree with me when I say Poecilotheria is a whole other ballgame compared to other known communal species.

Neoholothele incei are doable but just like any successful communal species you have to keep them within close quarters. Yes, even M. balfouri. I have had 2 communals of them, although they are more tolerant, I have had cannibalism with them also...
Best to breed the species your going to do a communal experiment with for obvious reasons. This procedure is exactly how we know what species are communally possible or not in captivity. Often species found in the wild "communally" aren't so tolerant of one another in captivity.
My incei communal failed at first, but luckily the "king of the hill" was a female and I eventually bred her. With her offspring knowing nothing else (I mean nothing else... Literally breeding them and keeping them in the same enclosure) you will increase your odds of success.
Now, I have kept multiple generations together, only difference is that the original generation that failed, changed enclosures once.
Just my observation, really doesn't mean much... Just my 2 ¢. Until otherwise, I won't fix something that isn't broken.

 

[BobBarley]

I think Poecilotheria is special in a way with this topic or maybe lots of species haven't been experimented enough with communal behavior. With Poecilotheria, it seems far more tolerance than communal.

Raising a communal in captivity is like a box of chocolates....
I agree Tom, although I have to believe you agree with me when I say Poecilotheria is a whole other ballgame compared to other known communal species.

Neoholothele incei are doable but just like any successful communal species you have to keep them within close quarters. Yes, even M. balfouri. I have had 2 communals of them, although they are more tolerant, I have had cannibalism with them also...
Best to breed the species your going to do a communal experiment with for obvious reasons. This procedure is exactly how we know what species are communally possible or not in captivity. Often species found in the wild "communally" aren't so tolerant of one another in captivity.
My incei communal failed at first, but luckily the "king of the hill" was a female and I eventually bred her. With her offspring knowing nothing else (I mean nothing else... Literally breeding them and keeping them in the same enclosure) you will increase your odds of success.
Now, I have kept multiple generations together, only difference is that the original generation that failed, changed enclosures once.
Just my observation, really doesn't mean much... Just my 2 ¢. Until otherwise, I won't fix something that isn't broken.

Yes, P. regalis was one of them. There's several reasons why I separate them when they get to sub adult or adult sizes. 1. Sales purposes 2. Breeding purposes 3. I'm just not a fan of keeping large adult spiders all crammed into a small cage. However I do think its a great, easy, fast, and fairly safe way to raise hundreds of Poecilotheria all at once.

Only twice have I ever witnessed cannibalism ( once with metallica, and once with tigrinawesseli ) and both occasions were the same night I transferred the group of spiders into new larger housing. Logic would say moving them into a new cage likely puts them out of sorts, since its new unfamiliar territory and causes them to become agitated or aggressive toward one another. Eventually they settled in and kept the peace from there on out. Could there be more cannablism that I just didn't see ? Sure, but that's all I've witnessed.

There are other "problems" with Poecilotheria communals such as size growth among individuals. There's always going to be a couple of alpha hogs that suck up all the food and grow much faster then others. I've had 4 inchers living in the same cage with little 1 inchers that were growing much slower. Even then , I still never saw the larger ones eating the smaller ones.

I think spiders living in close quarters and molting together may also cause some issues with missing legs and such as well. A group of spiders wont really respect the space of a fragile molting sibling when forced to live together.

These are all minor "problems" in my opinion though, and don't really justify claims of Poecilotheria communals ending with one big fat pokie. I often find these claims are made by people who have never tried, and just regurgitated what Rick you to say on this site all the time lol

Later, Tom

Interesting that you both note cannibalism after a rehouse... That's precisely what happened here with my N. incei. One was cannibalized after a rehouse.

 

[Nightstalker47]

Yes, P. regalis was one of them. There's several reasons why I separate them

These are all minor "problems" in my opinion though, and don't really justify claims of Poecilotheria communals ending with one big fat pokie. I often find these claims are made by people who have never tried, and just regurgitated what Rick you to say on this site all the time lol

Later, Tom

How many of your succesful Poeciletheria communals do you have going now? And what were the survival rates you documented? Communal would imply they survived together long term (into adulthood), raising batches of slings together does not qualify. Keeping large groups of adults together permanently would warrant your claim, having them thrive and breed would also cement your argument.

Seems your "communals" were mostly slings that had been raised together, wich you then separated. I don't know why this would dismiss the fact that P.regalis aren't a species that does well communally (long term), it was mentioned that a great many species are fairly tolerant of each other when young, this doesn't last indefinitely.

Even in your personal experience you say there was cannibalism, and that you may not of noticed all of it. I have yet to hear of a single P.regalis communal that has lasted long term...

 

[Python]

I kept a pair of regalis together years ago for awhile. I got them as a pair and sold them the same way as I recall. If memory serves, it was a male and female but I remember them being one or two molts away from maturity. It's the only time I've kept adult T's together and I only did it then because that's how I got them. They were in a big Rubbermaid tub with no decoration and coconut fiber sunstrate. I had them just long enough to send them off to someone wanting to breed them, a few weeks at most. I had no issues but I certainly won't do it again. The risk is just too high. There is no benefit to keeping them communally and the cost is to high (both money wise and loss of animals) to attempt it. I like my critters too much to take a chance on losing one or more and I suspect that I'm not the only one here that feels that way.

 

[14pokies]

Yes, P. regalis was one of them. There's several reasons why I separate them when they get to sub adult or adult sizes. 1. Sales purposes 2. Breeding purposes 3. I'm just not a fan of keeping large adult spiders all crammed into a small cage. However I do think its a great, easy, fast, and fairly safe way to raise hundreds of Poecilotheria all at once.

Only twice have I ever witnessed cannibalism ( once with metallica, and once with tigrinawesseli ) and both occasions were the same night I transferred the group of spiders into new larger housing. Logic would say moving them into a new cage likely puts them out of sorts, since its new unfamiliar territory and causes them to become agitated or aggressive toward one another. Eventually they settled in and kept the peace from there on out. Could there be more cannablism that I just didn't see ? Sure, but that's all I've witnessed.

There are other "problems" with Poecilotheria communals such as size growth among individuals. There's always going to be a couple of alpha hogs that suck up all the food and grow much faster then others. I've had 4 inchers living in the same cage with little 1 inchers that were growing much slower. Even then , I still never saw the larger ones eating the smaller ones.

I think spiders living in close quarters and molting together may also cause some issues with missing legs and such as well. A group of spiders wont really respect the space of a fragile molting sibling when forced to live together.

These are all minor "problems" in my opinion though, and don't really justify claims of Poecilotheria communals ending with one big fat pokie. I often find these claims are made by people who have never tried, and just regurgitated what Rick you to say on this site all the time lol

Later, Tom

By the time I saw your reply @Nightstalker47 basically said what would of been my rebuttal.

You raised sac mates with losses, how many exactly you can't say but from your wording most likely more than what you witnessed..You had other problems as well.. Some outcompeted other's for food molting problems etc... You basically ran into all the same problems that I said would arise in a communal set up yet you disagreed with what I said.. That's kind of ironic ...

From what I can extract from the wording in your post you never raised a group into adulthood for an indefinate period where maybe only two out of ten would survive. Where possibly males would compete for mating privileges or females would compete for laying territory. Let me ask you. How do you think a female guarding an eggsac would respond to another male or female trying to occupy that same den? Again an area where you disagreed with me but you have never taken the experiment that far so you cant answer the question with any degree of certainty... Kind of ironic ..

I nor any others are regurgitating what Poec says.. We see communals go bad more times then they work out.. These boards are here for newcomers to arachnoculture as well as the advanced keepers and everyone that falls in between. So when someone like @mconnachan says P.regalis are communal it's up to others to point out that there information might be misleading or completely wrong.

Like I said this subject will allways be debatable and never be as cut and dry as they are or they aren't communal .. Another point that you disagreed with I believe ...

Eather way it was nice debating the subject with you.. I have have read many of your posts and heard your name tossed around and you have a reputation for knowing your stuff.. I have no doubt you know more about Theraphosids than I do..Even though we disagree on this I'm sure your experience with your poec "communals" has given you some interesting observations on the "social" behavior of Poecilotheria.. If I have to learn from keepers like you by having a different opinion than you so be it..

 

[14pokies]

The risk is just too high. There is no benefit to keeping them communally and the cost is to high (both money wise and loss of animals) to attempt it. I like my critters too much to take a chance on losing one or more and I suspect that I'm not the only one here that feels that way.

Agreed..

I hate it when I lose a male during breeding.. I would have a melt down if I lost a big female of any species of poec because I wanted to force them to do something in captivity that they wouldn't do in nature.

 

[Philth]

Oh boy, you guys are really hammering on me here lol. There's a lot that I want to respond to, but won't have time to later tonight. Thanks for the comments though

Later, Tom

 

[Python]

I'm not trying to hammer on anyone, I just know that no matter how slight the chance, the possibilty exists of cagemates not getting along and one eating another. I also know that at no time ever has a solitary pokie ever been canabalized. I like to stick with the sure thing. Just personal preference. I'll let the daredevils take the risk for me.

 

[14pokies]

Oh boy, you guys are really hammering on me here lol. There's a lot that I want to respond to, but won't have time to later tonight. Thanks for the comments though

Later, Tom

Nope not trying to hammer on you at all..

I accept that maybe you have had some success at raising poecs communally.. Maybe even more than what you have already stated..(We will find out later when you have more time) If anything, if this conversation is ongoing I'm hoping to extract knowledge from it..

The only stupid person in a room is the one that believes he has all the answers and is close minded to others results.. I realise that in the big picture of keeping Theraphosids I know very little as do many of us.. It's our collective knowledge that makes the forum so valuable..

If only one individuals statements are held as authoritative then the statements themselves could be completely bias rendering them useless.

I look forward to hearing more about your experiences on keeping poecs "communally" I'm sure I will learn something.. It probably won't be enough for me toss all my pokies in a big bin to see what happens but I'm sure in some way it will help us underetand more about poecilotheria in captivity in general..