Nematodes

Draiman

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my understanding of how at least some of the real "vicious" nematodes might work:

http://scabies.myfreeforum.org/Nematodes_Bacteria_about3859.html
I'm still not sure what to do. At best I can put the potentially infected animals in a cabinet in a separate room. But for how long? What if the nematodes simply stay dormant within their bodies and, by some coincidence, turn active when I decide it is safe to move them back to where I normally keep my bugs? Mind you, the "separate room" I'm talking about is my bedroom, where I'm not supposed to have any live animals, so I definitely can't have them in there for more than a few weeks. Wouldn't it be better and safer to simply euthanize them, and take no chances (though that would be a massive shame, since they do not even show a single symptom of nematode infection - yet)?
 

cacoseraph

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there are LARGE precedents for such simple animals having all kinds of dormancy tricks, as you are suggesting. i don't recall if nematodes, in part or whole, are known to pull such shenannigans



however... if you could go a year without any new cases manifesting, i expect that would mean *something*


this has been one of a bunch of things i try to read about... but there are just too many interesting things out there :/ even if i find stuff about parasites etc. in situ or from a pest management viewpoint it still isn't easy to safely transfer that knowledge to a hobby context. i'd love to hook up with any hobbyists that are also formally trained in this kidn of thing. i suspect that me and my local bug group could at least help with collecting infected wild specimens if the expert could develop some kind of good early diagnostic scheme for us (which would also be VERY nice for the hobby!)
 

cacoseraph

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the problem with euth'ing is that we just don't know how to tell what animals NEED to be killed. i mean, on the one hand getting rid of potential infection sources is obviously good and you do want to limit it from spreading in your collection as much as possible


but obviously killing any animals without actually needing to just sucks... especially in light of the fact you have already lost some :/
 

Lucas339

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the biggest problem is detection. there really isn't a way to tell if they have nematodes or not that i know of. i have found them in the gut tract and in the body walls. the only way to tell if they are there, is dissection. some of the animals i have received were perfectly eating and normal acting. some only had 1 or 2 nematodes in their body. another i got, looked similar to the picture link posted by gavin. this animal was severely infected with them both in the hind and fore gut.

i would love to see some papers, if anyone has them, on the transfer from one host to the next with this type of nematode. they are one of the hardest animals to ID so even knowing if this is the same nematode family, genus, or otherwise as the ones that infect taranutals is out of my grasps and im not even sure if it is known. they don't seem to act the same. that is, you can't see them around the mouths of the infected animal.

i don't think there is anything you can do. if you have WC in your collection, you probably have nematodes in your collection but thats the name of the game. if and when any of mine die, i will be sure to disect them to see if they have nematodes.
 

Draiman

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the problem with euth'ing is that we just don't know how to tell what animals NEED to be killed. i mean, on the one hand getting rid of potential infection sources is obviously good and you do want to limit it from spreading in your collection as much as possible

but obviously killing any animals without actually needing to just sucks... especially in light of the fact you have already lost some :/
Exactly.

Well alright, I don't want to leave these potentially infected animals just hanging around in my living room. If you were in my shoes, what would you do? That's all I need to know. :)

i don't think there is anything you can do. if you have WC in your collection, you probably have nematodes in your collection but thats the name of the game.
Should I isolate them then?
 

Nomadinexile

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Draiman;1614481 Should I isolate them then?[/QUOTE said:
This I can answer clearly. Yes. If one formally healthy one went down, the others are probably stressed from shipment at least. This could weaken their defenses to all parasites. I would absolutely. At least for a while until they recover from their journey, and appear healthy and active. I absolutely would.

Good luck.
 

cacoseraph

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this i can answer clearly. Yes. If one formally healthy one went down, the others are probably stressed from shipment at least. This could weaken their defenses to all parasites. I would absolutely. At least for a while until they recover from their journey, and appear healthy and active. I absolutely would.

Good luck.
+ 1
 

zonbonzovi

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Anyone here know whether or not nematodes living in an aquatic environment can be transferred to a terrestrial one WITHOUT a host? I'm curious also as to how exactly nematodes "travel", esp. in reference to a collection. Maybe I missed it in the scabies thread. If so, my apologies...
 

cacoseraph

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vector unknown or unremembered, for me

i have some reasonable suspects, though

primarily some form of intermediate either host or just "ride". i've read one possible method to limiting spread is to only have your cages ventilated by holes covered with microscreen stuff

of course, those nematodes are so small that i guess they could use spooky infection methods. like maybe if one had eggs in it and died inside an enclosure they could dry out without the eggs dying... then if you broke them open maybe their eggs would be light enough to waft on a good breeze. that depends on them being able to do a number of other things, but it is just a for instance to give you an idea
 

Draiman

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This I can answer clearly. Yes. If one formally healthy one went down, the others are probably stressed from shipment at least. This could weaken their defenses to all parasites. I would absolutely. At least for a while until they recover from their journey, and appear healthy and active. I absolutely would.

Good luck.
Will do. Thanks. But again - for how long?

vector unknown or unremembered, for me

i have some reasonable suspects, though

primarily some form of intermediate either host or just "ride". i've read one possible method to limiting spread is to only have your cages ventilated by holes covered with microscreen stuff

of course, those nematodes are so small that i guess they could use spooky infection methods. like maybe if one had eggs in it and died inside an enclosure they could dry out without the eggs dying... then if you broke them open maybe their eggs would be light enough to waft on a good breeze. that depends on them being able to do a number of other things, but it is just a for instance to give you an idea
Can't they physically "walk" or crawl from one place to another?
 

syndicate

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the biggest problem is detection. there really isn't a way to tell if they have nematodes or not that i know of.
Maybe examination of fecal material under a scope of suspected specimens could work?Its not uncommon for reptile breeders to have "fecals" done on there collection by sending off samples to people like vets.
It would be groundbreaking if someone could create some kind of fix or treatment you could give your spiders to avoid or kill infections!
Lucas you've dissected tarantulas and found them?Did you need a microscope to view the actual nematodes?
Also @ Draiman if you think the animals are infected best bet may be to freeze them just to play it safe!
-Chris
 

Draiman

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Also @ Draiman if you think the animals are infected best bet may be to freeze them just to play it safe!
-Chris
I was definitely considering that, and still am. But these are simply animals that came in the same package, and they show absolutely no sign of infection (yet). I guess the nematodes could have spread from the dead pede's container to others in the package, but of course I don't know for sure.

I hate dilemmas like this one - to euthanize or not?
 

cacoseraph

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Will do. Thanks. But again - for how long?


Can't they physically "walk" or crawl from one place to another?
i mean, i would be kinda surprised if they can crawl more than a few inches in any but special circumstances. i expect they dry out pretty quickly if they are not in moisture or a moist environment

however, a package might be cool enough and juuust moist enough to let them walk, if they can



i need to do more research and fill in my little thread. i have read a bit more than just that one article... but no where near enough, yet!
 

Draiman

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i mean, i would be kinda surprised if they can crawl more than a few inches in any but special circumstances. i expect they dry out pretty quickly if they are not in moisture or a moist environment

however, a package might be cool enough and juuust moist enough to let them walk, if they can



i need to do more research and fill in my little thread. i have read a bit more than just that one article... but no where near enough, yet!
Sooo...let's say there are a few stray nematodes in the compartment of the cupboard I kept the surviving pedes in. So if all the surfaces are clean and dry, they should not be able to move to another compartment of the same cupboard on their own? I sure hope so. I'll clean it out anyway.

One more thing: if an infected animal is alive and seemingly healthy, would there be any stray nematodes moving out of the animal? I ask because I absent-mindedly touched the container of one of my (CB) Stromatopelma calceatum after touching the outside of the container of a WC Lychas scutilus scorpion I collected yesterday. The scorpion shows no sign of infection or disease of any sort, this is just a hypothetical question; although since it was wild caught it's likely to have some sort of parasite in it anyway.

EDIT: Speaking of the package, there was a heat pack in it, so I think it may have been drier than usual.
 

cacoseraph

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well, i'm really just guessing here


but i suspect in the absence of some kind of phoresy situation i would expect nematodes to not be able to travel that far between cages in a normal house. i really need to read more to have a better guess

as for you touching the outside of a cage of an infected specimen and then touching the outside of another cage... i would be VERY very surprised if that could infect something else even 0.00001% of the time
 

Draiman

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well, i'm really just guessing here
An educated guess is always helpful :)

as for you touching the outside of a cage of an infected specimen and then touching the outside of another cage... i would be VERY very surprised if that could infect something else even 0.00001% of the time
Not even with microscopic nematodes? As you've said before, not many are macroscopic, so I wouldn't even know if I had them on my fingers.

Edit: Oh and it wasn't just the exterior surface, I did open the spider's container to remove a molt...
 
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Draiman

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Also, I should have asked this long ago, but is ordinary soap strong enough to kill the nematodes? When cleaning my tweezers and other tools after dealing with possibly infected animals, I washed them with only ordinary hand soap. :wall:
 

Lucas339

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Maybe examination of fecal material under a scope of suspected specimens could work?Its not uncommon for reptile breeders to have "fecals" done on there collection by sending off samples to people like vets.
It would be groundbreaking if someone could create some kind of fix or treatment you could give your spiders to avoid or kill infections!
Lucas you've dissected tarantulas and found them?Did you need a microscope to view the actual nematodes?
Also @ Draiman if you think the animals are infected best bet may be to freeze them just to play it safe!
-Chris
i have dissected centipedes only. never done a tarantula. i think the nematodes are probably different for each but that is a guess based on what i have been told about the animals i dissected. none of the animals given to me for dissection had nematodes near the mouth. doing fecals may work for those found in the GI tract but i have found them out side of the GI tract. i would love to do fecals but i don't even see fecal matter from the pedes i have.

im not sure if these animals (nematodes) would be able to climb plastic containers. they are pretty simple animals when you get down to it. they move in a snake like movement. IMO this would limit them in how they could "climb". their body is smooth and doesn't possess any glands (that i know of) to secret some sort of glue like fluid (as in other animals) for locomotion or climbing nor do they have any type of appendages for an attachment point (as in polychaetes).
 

Draiman

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im not sure if these animals (nematodes) would be able to climb plastic containers. they are pretty simple animals when you get down to it. they move in a snake like movement. IMO this would limit them in how they could "climb". their body is smooth and doesn't possess any glands (that i know of) to secret some sort of glue like fluid (as in other animals) for locomotion or climbing nor do they have any type of appendages for an attachment point (as in polychaetes).
I see. Therefore, the main method of transmission would most likely be via contaminated tools and possibly phorid flies as a vector? This brings me back to the question - is ordinary soap strong enough to kill these nematodes? Because that is the only thing I've used to clean my equipment and containers.
 
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