Nematodes, DKS, both?

koldaar

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My female 5" A. genic has had DKS like symptoms for 3-4 months. She hasn't eating anything since, probably due to coordination issues. She's got a larger rump, so she can go a while without food. About 3-4 weeks ago I found her upside down in her water dish. She is no where near a molt. A few days later I found her with her butt completely submerged in her water dish. After removing her, she had the death curl going on but was a little responsive to stimulation (tapping the tank or brushing a leg). I searched for symptoms/illnesses etc across multiple sites and I'm not actually sure what's happening. My best guess, being a complete amateur at diagnosing anything, is that she has nematodes. I found posts suggesting a salt dip, peroxide on the mouth parts, and/or a saline rinse. I did the dip about 3 weeks ago in a light salt/water solution. Haven't done it again since. I applied peroxide about every other day with a saline rinse right after to clean things out. That got a lot of white gunk out from between her chelicera. The first few times the peroxide really fizzed, but now it doesn't really do anything. So I've slowed that down. Currently, I'm doing a saline rinse with contact solution once a day. I also drop water onto her mouth a couple times a day. She's being kept on her back on dry paper towels in a larger container. She's been getting a little more responsive (it seems to me anyways) as time goes, but she does not flip over. I'm sure I'm doing a lot wrong here, so if anyone has any suggestions or wants to scold me for what I'm doing please do so. I'd really hate to lose her, but if euthanizing her is the best option I will do that. She's quite a long ways from a molt. Any help would be appreciated.
 

NMTs

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My female 5" A. genic has had DKS like symptoms for 3-4 months. She hasn't eating anything since, probably due to coordination issues. She's got a larger rump, so she can go a while without food. About 3-4 weeks ago I found her upside down in her water dish. She is no where near a molt. A few days later I found her with her butt completely submerged in her water dish. After removing her, she had the death curl going on but was a little responsive to stimulation (tapping the tank or brushing a leg). I searched for symptoms/illnesses etc across multiple sites and I'm not actually sure what's happening. My best guess, being a complete amateur at diagnosing anything, is that she has nematodes. I found posts suggesting a salt dip, peroxide on the mouth parts, and/or a saline rinse. I did the dip about 3 weeks ago in a light salt/water solution. Haven't done it again since. I applied peroxide about every other day with a saline rinse right after to clean things out. That got a lot of white gunk out from between her chelicera. The first few times the peroxide really fizzed, but now it doesn't really do anything. So I've slowed that down. Currently, I'm doing a saline rinse with contact solution once a day. I also drop water onto her mouth a couple times a day. She's being kept on her back on dry paper towels in a larger container. She's been getting a little more responsive (it seems to me anyways) as time goes, but she does not flip over. I'm sure I'm doing a lot wrong here, so if anyone has any suggestions or wants to scold me for what I'm doing please do so. I'd really hate to lose her, but if euthanizing her is the best option I will do that. She's quite a long ways from a molt. Any help would be appreciated.
While you've provided thorough descriptions of what's happening, it would really help to see pics of the spider, the enclosure, any suspected nematodes, and even a video of it's behavior.

I've never dealt with any of what you've described, but if you see improvements, even just slight improvements, then it would be prudent to continue with the treatments you've been administering (unless someone else with more experience has better suggestions). There are often no "quick remedies" to these ailments, so slow and steady is usually the only option.

It sounds like you're doing a great job caring for your T - best of luck!
 

koldaar

Arachnoknight
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Well, the gif may look terrible because I had to drop the resolution to upload it here. The pic doesn’t show much of anything. There’s nothing left in or around her mouth to get a pic of.

Her legs look all disjointed and odd in the pic. They are normal. It’s just the pic.
 

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viper69

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I see the gif, certainly something seems up. A bummer no doubt. Any chemicals etc in the air?
 

Ultum4Spiderz

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Well, the gif may look terrible because I had to drop the resolution to upload it here. The pic doesn’t show much of anything. There’s nothing left in or around her mouth to get a pic of.
Definitely dks , sorry 😞… wish I knew anything that helps it.
 

NMTs

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Her legs look all disjointed and odd in the pic. They are normal. It’s just the pic.
You've had her on her back for a while since you've been treating her - have you tried flipping her right-side up lately to see how she responds?
 

Pana Lemontzis

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My female 5" A. genic has had DKS like symptoms for 3-4 months. She hasn't eating anything since, probably due to coordination issues. She's got a larger rump, so she can go a while without food. About 3-4 weeks ago I found her upside down in her water dish. She is no where near a molt. A few days later I found her with her butt completely submerged in her water dish. After removing her, she had the death curl going on but was a little responsive to stimulation (tapping the tank or brushing a leg). I searched for symptoms/illnesses etc across multiple sites and I'm not actually sure what's happening. My best guess, being a complete amateur at diagnosing anything, is that she has nematodes. I found posts suggesting a salt dip, peroxide on the mouth parts, and/or a saline rinse. I did the dip about 3 weeks ago in a light salt/water solution. Haven't done it again since. I applied peroxide about every other day with a saline rinse right after to clean things out. That got a lot of white gunk out from between her chelicera. The first few times the peroxide really fizzed, but now it doesn't really do anything. So I've slowed that down. Currently, I'm doing a saline rinse with contact solution once a day. I also drop water onto her mouth a couple times a day. She's being kept on her back on dry paper towels in a larger container. She's been getting a little more responsive (it seems to me anyways) as time goes, but she does not flip over. I'm sure I'm doing a lot wrong here, so if anyone has any suggestions or wants to scold me for what I'm doing please do so. I'd really hate to lose her, but if euthanizing her is the best option I will do that. She's quite a long ways from a molt. Any help would be appreciated.
Did you feed it wild caught bugs? I have 0 idea of what dks is or how its caused. But my best guess is chemicals. Never seen it in any of my Ts.
 

MariaLewisia

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Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't 3-4 months a very long time for a tarantula to survive with these kinds of symptoms? Most cases I've heard of had the tarantula deteriorating rapidly from the onset of dyskinesia, regardless of the cause/catalyst. Within weeks the T was dead. It makes your case very curious.

As for the gunk, it could very well be nematodes. Could you see any "pulsating" movement from the mass? Sounds gross (and it is) but you can usually see the mass of nematodes moving or pulsing. This is a video showing a close-up shot of a nematode infection. Did it look anything like it?
With nematode infection you'll also see a paralysis of the pedipalps. Have you noticed that as well?

I am so sorry that neither I, nor anyone else, are able to give you any clear answers. Invertebrate medicine is in its infancy and no one really knows how or why things happen the way they do, even less what to do to fix it. It's very much trial and error and feeling around in the dark for the most part. You did good with flushing whatever gunk was in/around the mouth, and her getting slightly more active afterwards is a sign you're doing something right. If she's survived this long with the symptoms and is looking slightly better now, I'd give her just a bit more time to see if she can recover even more before making any harsh decisions. Please keep us updated.
 
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koldaar

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You've had her on her back for a while since you've been treating her - have you tried flipping her right-side up lately to see how she responds?
I just flipped her over. So i'll see how she responds to that.

Did you feed it wild caught bugs? I have 0 idea of what dks is or how its caused. But my best guess is chemicals. Never seen it in any of my Ts.
No wild caught bugs.
 

Pana Lemontzis

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No wild caught bugs.
Nemtods can basically "spawn" anyway. Dont have to be wild caught Ts or Ts eating wild caught. If you just leave in a water dish without cleaning it it may get nematods(not parasitic or dangerous ones usually)
 

koldaar

Arachnoknight
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't 3-4 months a very long time for a tarantula to survive with these kinds of symptoms? Most cases I've heard of had the tarantula deteriorating rapidly from the onset of dyskinesia, regardless of the cause/catalyst. Within weeks the T was dead. It makes your case very curious.

As for the gunk, it could very well be nematodes. Could you see any "pulsating" movement from the mass? Sounds gross (and it is) but you can usually see the mass of nematodes moving or pulsing. This is a video showing a close-up shot of a nematode infection. Did it look anything like it?
With nematode infection you'll also see a paralysis of the pedipalps. Have you noticed that as well?

I am so sorry that neither I, nor anyone else, are able to give you any clear answers. Invertebrate medicine is in its infancy and no one really knows how or why things happen the way they do, even less what to do to fix it. It's very much trial and error and feeling around in the dark for the most part. You did good with flushing whatever gunk was in/around the mouth, and her getting slightly more active afterwards is a sign you're doing something right. If she's survived this long with the symptoms and is looking slightly better now, I'd give her just a bit more time to see if she can recover even more before making any harsh decisions. Please keep us updated.
3-4 months appears to be a long time with these symptoms, I agree. But none-the-less, it's happened.

I watched that video and the white gunk in her mouth was not anything like what that tarantula had. There was no pulsating and not nearly as thick. My girl had just some slight whiteish stuff, I should've taken pics. The peroxide and saline flush has eliminated it. Again, I'm not making any diagnoses on this, nematodes was just the best I could come up with. I did not notice any paralysis of the pedipalps, and to be honest I wasn't looking. Any movement she made was very uncoordinated, so I wouldn't have focused on the pedipalps.

I'm guessing there's not much else I can do. Maybe just keep up on the saline rinse every day, keep her on dry paper towels, and drip water into her mouth every so often.
 

Smotzer

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I dont suspect nematodes personally, and it looks a bit more like some more mild dyskensia, and the fact that its been possibly over 3-4 months is on the better end of situations, usually more severe issues dont allow a tarantula to live as long.

I didn't see if this was addressed but does it always have access to a water dish inside its enclosure at all times?
 

koldaar

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I dont suspect nematodes personally, and it looks a bit more like some more mild dyskensia, and the fact that its been possibly over 3-4 months is on the better end of situations, usually more severe issues dont allow a tarantula to live as long.

I didn't see if this was addressed but does it always have access to a water dish inside its enclosure at all times?
Yes, it has a water dish at all times.
 

Ultum4Spiderz

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Yes, it has a water dish at all times.
I wonder if it got a dose of pesticides or something somehow , nematodes it would be a goner already I think 🤔 .. maybe a sick feeder or one with a parasite 🦠 ? Weird . Hope you find a solution! So strange ..
 

koldaar

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I wonder if it got a dose of pesticides or something somehow , nematodes it would be a goner already I think 🤔 .. maybe a sick feeder or one with a parasite 🦠 ? Weird . Hope you find a solution! So strange ..
It could very well be something from a feeder. I only spray pesticides around the outside perimeter of the house with windows closed. At the time she started showing symptoms I wouldn’t have sprayed anything yet due to the time of the year.
 

MariaLewisia

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This thought just occured to me and it's a complete shot in the dark as I have no idea if tarantula anatomy even allows for it to happen, but here I go: has she been pooping while also having the white gunk appear in her mouth? In mammalian medicine there's something called fecal vomiting which is exactly what it sounds like. Caused by blockages and fistulas mainly. Having seen it in person, it's quite nasty. If this is possible in Ts (and if she hasn't pooped) all combined with her dipping her abdomen in the water dish, it could be an indication that there's a blockage and/or leakage.
 

Wolfram1

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This thought just occured to me and it's a complete shot in the dark as I have no idea if tarantula anatomy even allows for it to happen, but here I go: has she been pooping while also having the white gunk appear in her mouth? In mammalian medicine there's something called fecal vomiting which is exactly what it sounds like. Caused by blockages and fistulas mainly. Having seen it in person, it's quite nasty. If this is possible in Ts (and if she hasn't pooped) all combined with her dipping her abdomen in the water dish, it could be an indication that there's a blockage and/or leakage.
i was thinking it might have been vomiting, but i hadn't known THAT was possible...
 
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