Narceus gordanus vs. americanus

MontePython

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I've been doing some reading up on these guys recently, and apart from how they look and the varieties available (though that's substantially narrowed in the UK - at least at the moment), I've been trying to get a read on the pros and cons of them behaviourally. Is one more surface active than the other (I know I've read that one is known to be pretty elusive in that respect, but can't remember which), amenable to handling (though I know that this can vary from individual to individual), etc? What do you like about them/dislike about them?

In part this is curiosity, because it's only every so often that I see one or the other for sale here, but also if I should ever have to move back to the US, I figure I might as well get acquainted with the locals!

Thoughts?
 

Arthroverts

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N. gordanus is the recluse you mention; you will hardly ever see them above the surface during waking hours, and even then only if you've left the enclosure alone for weeks/months. In my experience they aren't especially prone to releasing their defensive toxins, but they will often stay rolled up for a little while if you disturb them, and therefore I wouldn't recommend them much for handling.
N. americanus from what I hear is much more surface active and isn't nearly as reclusive, held or otherwise.

They are both beautiful species with an insanely large amount of color variations, but if you are looking for a species you will at least see semi-regularly N. americanus is the way to go.

Hope this helps,

Arthroverts

P.S Why not just get both?
 

mickiem

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Totally agree with @Arthroverts . The N. gordanus are fossorial and rarely on the surface. I keep both species but gordanus just aren't one of my favorites!
 

mickiem

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Oh, have I forgotten how to tag someone?!
 

MontePython

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N. gordanus is the recluse you mention; you will hardly ever see them above the surface during waking hours, and even then only if you've left the enclosure alone for weeks/months. In my experience they aren't especially prone to releasing their defensive toxins, but they will often stay rolled up for a little while if you disturb them, and therefore I wouldn't recommend them much for handling.
N. americanus from what I hear is much more surface active and isn't nearly as reclusive, held or otherwise.

They are both beautiful species with an insanely large amount of color variations, but if you are looking for a species you will at least see semi-regularly N. americanus is the way to go.

Hope this helps,

Arthroverts

P.S Why not just get both?
Ahhh gotcha! I knew it was one of them that was very fossorial, at least but not sure which (or if it was both). I've seen lots of the different variations in people's posts - I think most of the N. gordanus in the hobby here are the kind of grey-smokey coloured ones (usually labelled 'Smokey Oak' and sometimes they get quite dark in colour), though we get some blonds labelled Ocala Gold sometimes (haven't seen any for sale in a while though). The N. americanus seem to be more varied as far what's offered, but generally seem to get mixed together. I don't think I've seen albinos over here at all, so I'm not sure that they're established here (or if they are, I don't know where to find them).

Is it known, by the way, if they will interbreed if kept together? I know it's a risk sometimes with species of the same genus and don't want any accidental hybrids, so I thought I'd check.

But also thanks for the advice @Arthroverts and @mickiem!
 

Arthroverts

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@mickiem, you haven't ;).

@MontePython, N. gordanus localities are usually kept separate, but you are right with N. americanus localities being all mixed up.
I've never seen albinos over there either.

I don't think those two species will interbreed, but with N. americanus and N. annularis it might be a problem.

Happy to be of service.

Thanks,

Arthroverts
 

MontePython

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@mickiem, you haven't ;).

@MontePython, N. gordanus localities are usually kept separate, but you are right with N. americanus localities being all mixed up.
I've never seen albinos over there either.

I don't think those two species will interbreed, but with N. americanus and N. annularis it might be a problem.

Happy to be of service.

Thanks,

Arthroverts
Ahhh gotcha! I was pretty sure I'd read something about there being some blurry lines with N. americanus and another Narceus species re: whether they were separate species, subspecies, or regional variants (or sort of a parapatric speciation issue?). I didn't think it was gordanus, but couldn't remember annularis!
 

Arthroverts

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N. americanus and N. annularis are separate species, but their ranges overlap in nature making it difficult to discern which is which, i.e, a species complex.
Aside from N. gordanus, N. americanus, and N. annularis, I only know of one more species, and that is the small N. woodruffi from Florida which isn't kept in the hobby with any regularity yet.

Thanks,

Arthroverts
 

MontePython

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N. americanus and N. annularis are separate species, but their ranges overlap in nature making it difficult to discern which is which, i.e, a species complex.
Aside from N. gordanus, N. americanus, and N. annularis, I only know of one more species, and that is the small N. woodruffi from Florida which isn't kept in the hobby with any regularity yet.

Thanks,

Arthroverts
Gotcha - it must have been the species complex thing that I was sort of half-remembering. Thanks for the clarification!
 

MontePython

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@mickiem @Arthroverts Well...I caved and got one of each. :rofl:

The guy was mostly selling very small juvenile N. americanus, but I talked to him and he found one that was a little bigger (maybe 2.5-3 inches rather than 1 inch). As far as I can tell, I think I got a male due to the larger 7th tergite (at least it looks larger to me). It's easier to see with flash than without, but he's kind of a rich, reddish brown in colour, with red edging. He went under a hide pretty quickly once placed in the tank, and if my juvenile S. servatius is anything to go by, I might not see him for a while until he's settled in more. We'll see!
20200714_174424.jpg 20200714_174434.jpg
The N. gordanus, on the other hand, is just about adult-sized, and is definitely one of the more blond colour variations? I'm not sure if they're Ocal gold or not (mostly because I don't know enough about them), but they've got really striking yellow banding both with and without flash, and under some kinds of lighting look very pale in colour. Once I got them to uncoil, they were pretty bold about exploring my hand, but as expected, disappeared quickly once in the enclosure. I think this one is a female, but I didn't get as good a look as I would have liked.
20200714_174805.jpg 20200714_174817.jpg
 

Arthroverts

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Only one of each?? C’mon...
Anyway, congratulations, you got two very fine looking specimens?

I’ve probably asked before, but are you only getting single specimens because you are not interested in breeding?

Thanks,

Arthroverts
 

MontePython

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Only one of each?? C’mon...
Anyway, congratulations, you got two very fine looking specimens?

I’ve probably asked before, but are you only getting single specimens because you are not interested in breeding?

Thanks,

Arthroverts
Thanks! The N. americanus came back out later that night for a wander, but has been out of sight since, and true to form, I've not seen the N. gordanus since. :rofl:

Yes and no, I guess? At first I definitely wasn't interested in breeding, but then as I've learned more, I've become a lot more interested - especially since it's a way to sort of give back to the hobby by helping establish captive-bred lines, but wasn't sure about doing anything in my communal tank, and I knew I didn't have space for multiple larger tanks.

That said, I did start my experiment with Coromus vittatus vittatus - I started with two in late May (in part because suddenly I couldn't find more in the UK), one was definitely an adult male, and the other is a sub-adult female (I think sub-adult due to her colours not being as defined and vivid as his were). The male died of unknown causes - at first I thought it might have been a mistake I made, but now I think he may have been wild caught and subject to other factors. The sub-adult female on the other hand, has actually thrived and seems to be doing really well, which has been encouraging. I've been in contact with another breeder and should be able to get some other sub-adult and adult individuals soon to get that tank kicked off properly. The biggest hump was getting the temperature/humidity and ventilation sorted. They need a fair amount of ventilation and pretty consistent temperature, and so I have to give them more attention than my big tank (which is much more self-sufficient re: moisture retention and such).

I do have another smaller tank (it's a 24L...so...about 5 gallon?) that I'd love to set up something else in (maybe something less challenging than the flats, but still relatively surface active at times - I'm spoiled by my giants, I'm afraid), but I'm not sure what.

I've read that C. spinigerus are easy starters, but for some reason I've not seen them for a few months (since January maybe?) in the UK and the ones I have seen have been around 19.99gbp each (for comparison, I paid something like 15gbp for my A. gigas).

Most of the more readily available species are African or Asian species (there's one South American species as well, but I've only seen one place with them and I don't really want to pay shipping from Germany if I don't have to), with the exception of A. monilicornis, which I've read are pretty fossorial.

I'm not really sure what size millipede works best for the tank size (though I've been mostly looking at species 14cm/5 1/2in or smaller) or what group size I should consider starting with and could really use any kind of advice.

Within that general size bracket, in addition to A. monilicornis, I know that A. dollfusi, T. corallinus, P. ligulatus, and Spirostreptus sp. 1 are all pretty readily available in the UK along with C. diaphorus and D. planata (though I'm thinking against two tanks of polydesmids) and a couple glomerid species (G. marginata, G. ornata, and G. pustulata). There's also a couple small African species that are so far pretty much unnamed that have recently shown up on the market.

If I wanted to spring for something from a German breeder/seller, that adds B. siamensis, C. annulatus, C. splendidus, S. caudulanus (or whatever its proper name is nowadays), S. gregorius, and a South American spirobolid species that is noted as being suspected of being a Rhinocricus sp. along with a couple more glomerid species (G. undulata, G. c.f. hexasticha, and R. c.f. carnifex). But again the shipping costs are always a little daunting.

Sorry this was quite late and fairly rambly!
 

Arthroverts

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Welcome to your Narceus experience :rofl: ...

Anyway, interesting. Breeding I think is one of the most rewarding things about keeping millipedes, and for most species it's easy enough that there isn't really any reason not to do it (unless of course you don't have buyers for the inevitable thousands of A. monilicornis or S. sp. "1" you'll end up with).

C. vitattus and C. diaphorus actually seem easier than I originally read they were, with many breeders being successful with them. I'm very interested in hearing how your experiment with them works out.

C. spinigerus for that price? Wow. They are so prolific that almost seems criminal to sell them for those prices. Then again, they probably aren't captive bred but wild caught imports from the US. They would do quite well in a five gallon, as would likely every other species that you list after that, except for maybe the S. gregorius which could get too big. From what I've read Centrobolus would do especially well; they might be small but CB specimens are apparently hardy and are super prolific.
If you have photos of any of the unidentified species I'd be happy to take a look at them to see if they have at least been in the hobby before, and if so what they were called.

Not a problem :).

Thanks,

Arthroverts
 

MontePython

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Welcome to your Narceus experience :rofl: ...

Anyway, interesting. Breeding I think is one of the most rewarding things about keeping millipedes, and for most species it's easy enough that there isn't really any reason not to do it (unless of course you don't have buyers for the inevitable thousands of A. monilicornis or S. sp. "1" you'll end up with).

C. vitattus and C. diaphorus actually seem easier than I originally read they were, with many breeders being successful with them. I'm very interested in hearing how your experiment with them works out.

C. spinigerus for that price? Wow. They are so prolific that almost seems criminal to sell them for those prices. Then again, they probably aren't captive bred but wild caught imports from the US. They would do quite well in a five gallon, as would likely every other species that you list after that, except for maybe the S. gregorius which could get too big. From what I've read Centrobolus would do especially well; they might be small but CB specimens are apparently hardy and are super prolific.
If you have photos of any of the unidentified species I'd be happy to take a look at them to see if they have at least been in the hobby before, and if so what they were called.

Not a problem :).

Thanks,

Arthroverts
Yeah - the price seems weird to me. It's been a while since I've seen them anywhere else, but when I have it's been for easily half that if not less? So idk. It seems like the UK has waves of availability with ivories.

The various Centrobolus species are ones that I definitely know I can find CB, so I'll look into them! I was a little worried about providing enough climbing, but I guess since they're so small it's not as hard to provide (compared to the space required for things big enough for large species to climb on at least!).

With the unidentified species, I've got a few pictures and information from the various places that are selling them, I'll pop them in below:

The first one seems to have been nicknamed "Cameroon Zebra" and get to about 8-10cm. Based on the shape of the collum I want to say spirobolid? But I don't feel super confident in that assessment.
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The second species has been nicknamed "African Dusky Grey" and are also from Cameroon. They're supposed to get to around the same size as the zebras and are apparently climbers. The antennae on these guys look a little more spirostreptid-ish? But again, I'm still learning so I'm not SUPER confident. At least in the pictures you can get a better look at both their antennae and their telsons which is nice.
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The last species is less unknown as uncertain I guess? It's currently labelled Spirobolid sp. 2, but the notes say that it's likely Rhinocricus sp. It's from South America and gets up to around 9cm. They're mostly terrestrial but apparently do climb a little. They're not particularly common in the hobby over here at all, though the breeder in Germany that I've bought from in the past has been working with them and apparently their offspring are pretty hardy.
1595276423295.png

(Also I'll reply to your DM tomorrow afternoon my time - I've got a moth surveying workshop early in the morning, so I've got to get up quite early to catch the bus to the site! Sorry for the delay!)
 
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