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Here's one my subadult/adult (?) female L. pallidus eating a roach: i posted her in the Latro pic thread as well
My pall...
- Thread starter KUJordan
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*coughcoughultimatecough*
-Matt
P.S. - Jordan and I are in disagreement on this one. I haven't seen a mature L. pallidus before, but it's my understanding that they don't quite reach the legspan/size of L. mactans, L. hesperus, and the like. Can anyone verify whether or not that's correct?
-Matt
P.S. - Jordan and I are in disagreement on this one. I haven't seen a mature L. pallidus before, but it's my understanding that they don't quite reach the legspan/size of L. mactans, L. hesperus, and the like. Can anyone verify whether or not that's correct?
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hi, you can´t decide whether a Latrodectus is adult or not just by its size. You have to take a look at the epigynium 
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Hey Bastian,hi, you can´t decide whether a Latrodectus is adult or not just by its size. You have to take a look at the epigynium
I agree with you 100% with regards to looking at the epigynium, but I would still hold that with enough experience, a person could (in most cases) look at a specimen and determine, with relative accuracy, whether or not it is sexually mature based on it's size.
Best regards,
-Matt
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hi Matt,
true too, but I don´t know how experieced KUJordan is in keeping and breeding Latrodectus sp. or other true spiders. What I wanted to say is that maturity of true spiders can be determined 100% sure by looking at the epigynium. It´s the same as looking at tarantulas from the ventral view to sex them...it´s never 100% sure.
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Hey Bastian,
You've made an excellent point.
Admittedly, I've never used genital aperture observation as a means of determining sexual maturity for Latrodectus spp. I would think one would need some decent source of magnification to properly do so. Is that assumption correct?
I guess what I was trying to get at earlier is this: I think we can all pretty much agree that an adult female L. geometricus (or Latrodectus sp. (Laos) for that matter) on average is smaller, in very general terms, than the average adult female L. hesperus. Further, I would say that on average all Latrodectus species found in the US (excluding L. geometricus) are again, generally very close, or similar, in terms of maximum adult size (L. hesperus, L. mactans, L. variolus, and L. bishopi, respectively). So my question is, for those familiar with both L. pallidus and the native US Latrodectus species, is there a generous difference in adult size between Latrodectus pallidus and the North American group of Latrodectus (like that of L. geometricus vs. L. hesperus)? If it is/were so, it would be a friendly template (albeit a subjective one) for those hobbyists who are just now getting a chance to work with L. pallidus. KUJordan, myself, and several others.
You see, in Jordan's current situation, he has the previously pictured female specimen and also a single ultimate male (not pictured). For some hobbyists, this is a situation that's all too familiar. That is, trying to hurry up a female so she may be bred with a remaining male before he expires. However, in some cases, like with the *newer* species in the US circles (e.g. L. sp. (laos), L. menavodi, L. pallidus, etc.) the females don't reach the sizes most US keepers are familiar with. So in theory, a hobbyist could be waiting indefinitely for a female to come around to her maximum size, when in reality she may never molt out any larger than she is, thus missing the opportune time frame for breeding. So what I'm saying is if Jordan discovers that L. pallidus are significantly smaller than core US widows when mature, as I suspect, he could potentially bypass the waiting game and pair them up.
In the end, however, you're correct. We can sidestep most everything above by just observing the epigynium.
All the above said, this brings up a question I've had for a short while. I was speaking with Frank Somma about a similar widow husbandry predicament (that is, waiting for a female spider to mature while limited males are expiring), and he mentioned that the reproductive structures in Theridiids are significantly different from Theraphosids in that they don't lose sperm when they molt. So, hypothetically a hobbyist with a sub-adult female and an ultimate male could breed the aforementioned pair, let the male inevitably expire, and still find success in his/her breeding efforts because the female would later molt into maturity and still have the sperm in her epigyne. I found that pretty intriguing. I haven't read it anywhere (which isn't exactly saying anything), but has anyone else? Or have they experienced such a scenario in their collections and found it to be true? Can anyone verify it?
Best regards,
-Matt
You've made an excellent point.
Admittedly, I've never used genital aperture observation as a means of determining sexual maturity for Latrodectus spp. I would think one would need some decent source of magnification to properly do so. Is that assumption correct?
I guess what I was trying to get at earlier is this: I think we can all pretty much agree that an adult female L. geometricus (or Latrodectus sp. (Laos) for that matter) on average is smaller, in very general terms, than the average adult female L. hesperus. Further, I would say that on average all Latrodectus species found in the US (excluding L. geometricus) are again, generally very close, or similar, in terms of maximum adult size (L. hesperus, L. mactans, L. variolus, and L. bishopi, respectively). So my question is, for those familiar with both L. pallidus and the native US Latrodectus species, is there a generous difference in adult size between Latrodectus pallidus and the North American group of Latrodectus (like that of L. geometricus vs. L. hesperus)? If it is/were so, it would be a friendly template (albeit a subjective one) for those hobbyists who are just now getting a chance to work with L. pallidus. KUJordan, myself, and several others.
You see, in Jordan's current situation, he has the previously pictured female specimen and also a single ultimate male (not pictured). For some hobbyists, this is a situation that's all too familiar. That is, trying to hurry up a female so she may be bred with a remaining male before he expires. However, in some cases, like with the *newer* species in the US circles (e.g. L. sp. (laos), L. menavodi, L. pallidus, etc.) the females don't reach the sizes most US keepers are familiar with. So in theory, a hobbyist could be waiting indefinitely for a female to come around to her maximum size, when in reality she may never molt out any larger than she is, thus missing the opportune time frame for breeding. So what I'm saying is if Jordan discovers that L. pallidus are significantly smaller than core US widows when mature, as I suspect, he could potentially bypass the waiting game and pair them up.
In the end, however, you're correct. We can sidestep most everything above by just observing the epigynium.
All the above said, this brings up a question I've had for a short while. I was speaking with Frank Somma about a similar widow husbandry predicament (that is, waiting for a female spider to mature while limited males are expiring), and he mentioned that the reproductive structures in Theridiids are significantly different from Theraphosids in that they don't lose sperm when they molt. So, hypothetically a hobbyist with a sub-adult female and an ultimate male could breed the aforementioned pair, let the male inevitably expire, and still find success in his/her breeding efforts because the female would later molt into maturity and still have the sperm in her epigyne. I found that pretty intriguing. I haven't read it anywhere (which isn't exactly saying anything), but has anyone else? Or have they experienced such a scenario in their collections and found it to be true? Can anyone verify it?
Best regards,
-Matt
Last edited:
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hi Matt,
You see, observations on L. tredecimguttatus showed that males enter the web of a female when she´s penultimate. He waits there until she moults and directly after she moulted to ultimate female he mates with her. During the mating the tip of the males embolus breaks and remains sticking in the females epigynium. This ensures him that the females eggs will only be fertilized by his sperm (so oftentimes mating a female with many different males is wasting resources ^^).
I´ve never heard of Latrodectus sp. being mated before reaching maturity. To my personal understandig this is not possible, as the epigynium is:
1) not the place where sperm is storaged. It´s still the spermathecae which can only be reached by inserting bulbs into the epigynium. Since the epigynium isn´t opened before maturity this could be difficult.
2) being moulted out when the female moults to ultimate female, just like the spermathecae is. Building a fertil eggsac after having moulted to ultimate female would imply that the sperm isn´t storaged at the spermathecae, but in a uterus internus (just like it is at Encyocratella olivacea).
I wouldn´t say so. My eyes aren´t better than those of everybody else, but I was able to see it without any technical help. With the epigynium it´s the same as it is with the epigastral furrow of tarantulas: When they reach maturity the furrow opens up a little bit (at least that´s what I saw).
You see, observations on L. tredecimguttatus showed that males enter the web of a female when she´s penultimate. He waits there until she moults and directly after she moulted to ultimate female he mates with her. During the mating the tip of the males embolus breaks and remains sticking in the females epigynium. This ensures him that the females eggs will only be fertilized by his sperm (so oftentimes mating a female with many different males is wasting resources ^^).
I´ve never heard of Latrodectus sp. being mated before reaching maturity. To my personal understandig this is not possible, as the epigynium is:
1) not the place where sperm is storaged. It´s still the spermathecae which can only be reached by inserting bulbs into the epigynium. Since the epigynium isn´t opened before maturity this could be difficult.
2) being moulted out when the female moults to ultimate female, just like the spermathecae is. Building a fertil eggsac after having moulted to ultimate female would imply that the sperm isn´t storaged at the spermathecae, but in a uterus internus (just like it is at Encyocratella olivacea).
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So you are saying that this girl IS an ultimate female and ready to breed? I was not sure when you said, "...I was able to see it w/o any help..." if you were talking about this pallidus I posted. If so, then that's great news and I won't wait to breed her. Let me know. Thanks!
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hi, I said that regarding the Latrodectus sp. I kept. But if you post a proper ventral shot of your L. pallidus female I could probably say if it´s adult or not...
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I have several of these pretty girls that I wish I could mate!
If one of you guys has an up and coming male for 50/50, contact me.
If one of you guys has an up and coming male for 50/50, contact me.
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i will have males if i can successfully mate mine!
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and my girls arnt prudish ...they will be content with sloppy-seconds. Seems that if mac and hesp males can mate a few times, the pal males should be able to also.