My first breeding project, looking for advice. H. pulchripes.

[KenNet]

I got three Harpactira pulchripes as slings about two years ago. It turned out to be one male and two females. The male matured about two weeks ago and I'm thinking of to breeding them. I suppose they are sack-mates, but I don't know for sure. I would love to send the male to someone who has a female not related to the ones I have, but that is a difficult task. Should I not even try to breed them because they are, most likely, sack-mates?

 

[viper69]

Breeding sac-mates, not exactly a genetically diverse approach. I'll pass on those future slings. Perhaps an offer of a "genetic-defect discount" should apply here?

 

[KenNet]

Breeding sac-mates, not exactly a genetically diverse approach. I'll pass on those future slings. Perhaps an offer of a "genetic-defect discount" should apply here?

Thank you for your reply.
Are genetics really that "fragile" with spiders? With insects it's not, also not with fish. Are you familiar with genetics?

 

[viper69]

Thank you for your reply.
Are genetics really that "fragile" with spiders? With insects it's not, also not with fish. Are you familiar with genetics?

I'm not a wildlife geneticist if that's what you are asking? I am familiar with various genetic principles, and many other processes under the umbrella of molecular genetics, not population genetics.. My point was this, why inbreed? Inbreeding is not a sound biological approach to maintaining a healthy animal population.

 

[KenNet]

I'm not a wildlife geneticist if that's what you are asking?

No, I was not asking.

I am familiar with various genetic principles, and many other processes under the umbrella of molecular genetics, not population genetics..

Good.

My point was this, why inbreed?

Because, as I wrote, there's no other viable alternative.

Inbreeding is not a sound biological approach to maintaining a healthy animal population.

Are you sure?

 

[Jess S]

The male may be mature but are the females?
What size are the females?
Have you checked a moult for schlerotized spermathacae?
Regards
J

 

[viper69]

I could be wrong, like I said, I'm not a population geneticist. DO some animals inbreed, yes. As for Ts, I don't know. It's not a risk I'm willing to take to see what happens. Even when reports of the F1 or F3 generation etc come back normal, these are not breeding experiments. They are breeders making an assumption based on their observations- which is fine. However, sometimes genetic issues don't appear until much later generally speaking. This may not apply to Ts..again who knows, and not interested in trying.

 

[Liquifin]

You can breed sac mates, but if the male is mature then I wouldn't expect the females to be of breedable size unless the females are larger than the male. Also I wouldn't recommend an OW T. as a beginner breeding project.

 

[viper69]

You can breed sac mates, but if the male is mature then I wouldn't expect the females to be of breedable size unless the females are larger than the male. Also I wouldn't recommend an OW T. as a beginner breeding project.

Is the judgement it's OK to do, simply based on a few generations and casual observation of a few hundred or less sacmates (depending on species)?

 

[Liquifin]

Is the judgement it's OK to do, simply based on a few generations and casual observation of a few hundred or less sacmates (depending on species)?

It can be done. But... No, I personally wouldn't inbreed sacmates of the same species. If it was me with a few H. pulchripes siblings and a male matured, I would've loaned him out instead of trying to breed it with its siblings. I'm not really a fan of inbred sacmates of popular species. I don't have the science or any proof, but from experience and observation, I notice more fragile and weaker specimens from inbred sacmates. If you compared GBB, C. versicolor, and H. pulchripes from when they first entered the hobby to now, there is quite a noticeable difference. I will never inbreed any of those species. PERIOD. I cannot be the only one to notice how much weaker specimens of those three have become in the hobby. Especially C. versicolor and at some point I don't think it would be a good idea to just keep blaming bad care or an inexperienced owner for a genetically weak sling from an inbred sac.

The only things keeping those species going in this hobby from this issue is people importing more from overseas, so I recommend searching and asking breeders who imports for a loan or try to get something done. I know people are skeptical of loans, but I would've loan my male.

No matter how big something is, without a strong foundation, it'll just collapse on itself in due time.

 

[viper69]

If you compared GBB, C. versicolor, and H. pulchripes from when they first entered the hobby to now, there is quite a noticeable difference

My GBB is from a decade ago. Though my versi are young, juvis, sacmates.

What have you noticed in the GBB, the weakness you are talking about, or something more specific. This is very interesting, and I'm not surprised. You see way more Ts than I do, and from many sources, so I trust your judgement.

 

[KenNet]

Thanks to all for your responses. Really appreciate it.
Due to the input I decided that I will not try to breed them. Unfortunately I can't find someone with a mature female, so the male will go to waist. That hurts a bit. But he's a very handsome guy and I hope he will stay around for many months to come.
My T. vagans male matured 15 moths ago and are still going strong, while I had some asian males that only lasted for a few months after matured.

 

[Jess S]

As said above you can definitely breed sac mates providing the females are mature, which in my uneducated opinion I reckon would be around the 4" mark. Though I'm sure people have had luck with slightly smaller specimens.

However, as Viper and Liquifin have pointed out, limiting the gene pool comes with ethical considerations. And I agree. A lot of species in the hobby are already interbred so why limit the genepool even more? Having said that, it is something that is done and is much less of an issue than hybridisation.

Have you tried advertising your MM? That may yield results.

 

[Tarantuland]

Thanks to all for your responses. Really appreciate it.
Due to the input I decided that I will not try to breed them. Unfortunately I can't find someone with a mature female, so the male will go to waist. That hurts a bit. But he's a very handsome guy and I hope he will stay around for many months to come.
My T. vagans male matured 15 moths ago and are still going strong, while I had some asian males that only lasted for a few months after matured.

I see you're in Sweden, but here in America many breeders would love a MM H pulchripes. Are you able to ship to other countries throughout Europe? I'm sure there is someone over there who could use him. Best of luck

 

[KenNet]

I see you're in Sweden, but here in America many breeders would love a MM H pulchripes. Are you able to ship to other countries throughout Europe? I'm sure there is someone over there who could use him. Best of luck

Thank you for your suggestions. Unfortunately I don't even know where to put an ad here in Sweden and shipping to another country would be very expensive. I hope something show up so he can fullfil he's duties.

 

[KenD]

Thank you for your suggestions. Unfortunately I don't even know where to put an ad here in Sweden and shipping to another country would be very expensive. I hope something show up so he can fullfil he's duties.

There's the terrariedjur forum, and several Swedish facebook groups.

 

[PoeciIotheria]

I don't entirely agree with the sentiment that inbreeding should be strictly avoided in T's. As you can see from everyone who's replied so far, everything is purely anecdotal and observational..And your T's are at the end of the day YOUR T's so what happens is ultimately your decision. Unless there is a geneticist who specializes in invertebrate genetics who could chime in, from what I have subjectively observed, inbreeding siblings does not result in the severe outcomes that a lot of other species (such as Humans) so I don't think its a huge issue to do so. That being said, it is simply my opinion and now of course I don't think that EVERYONE should be inbreeding their T's; but if you end up not being able to find someone else's female to send off your MM to, why not try it with yours?

 

[KenNet]

I really don't know what to do.
I want to breed them because I have this opportunity. I don't see a problem just because they are OW, I don't buy in to that generalisation at all, sorry.
The females are 4"+ so I think they are ready.
Maybe it's a better idea to try with my T. vagans, the only other mature couple I currently have. But the male matured 15 months ago, so maybe it's just "lunch" for the female.

Just thinking out loud because I really would love to see the H.p getting a sack, see the EWL, the slings... the whole process.

 

[Jess S]

Then do it. Noone is saying there will definitely be genetic effects. There's no definitive research into that I'm aware of. Instead, we are saying that across many other animal groups inbreeding causes defects, so it probably also could with tarantulas.

I think interbreeding this once will be ok. But if you were to continue to inbreed siblings etc for the next few generations, then you would be likely to see genetic issues . Obviously, you don't have those plans.

If you really want to do it, then go for it. Yes, it's not ideal but it is something that is done in the hobby when no other males are available.

 

[KenNet]

I find this about "inbreeding" invertebrates to be very interesting, so I have asked for an opinion from the Swedish Museum of Natural History (https://www.nrm.se/en/16.html) and will get back when I receive an answer from them