Multiple Partners: The Finer Points of Nondyadic Breeding Loans

cacoseraph

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A mating situation with only one male and one female is fairly straight forward... and in the case of a breeding loan the 50/50 in which the male's owner and the female's owner each get 50% of the offspring is the norm in the hobby world.

Where things can get complicated is if one female is mated to multiple males while she is in the same instar. Females definitely take multiple partners in the wild ( http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=2720288 ) and this practice, when observed in captivity is believed to lead to more successful eggsacs. the reason this is so has to do with some specifics in tarantula reproductive biolgy. i will begin with a lesson in tarantula and general spider biology. first, please read http://www.thebts.co.uk/old_articles/natural.htm to brush up on the reproductive process of our friend the tarantula. theraphosid use what is refered to as defered reproduction. humans and probably most other mammals are nondeferred... when a woman is inseminated by a healthy mature male the sperm must merge with the egg in a matter of days or they will die. a human female can not defer the introduction of sperm to egg. tarantulas on the other hand do not introduce the sperm onto the eggs until they are actually laying the eggs and making the eggsac... further, female spiders who mate with multiple partners tend to produce more and larger eggsacs.


Now, since the terms of a normal 50/50 loan no longer apply, i submit that a single share system be used. A person gets a single share per spider they introduce into a breeding equation. e.g. If Adam breeds his male to his female and then later borrows a male from Beth then Adam has two shares and Beth has one share of any offspring produced subsequent to introduction of Beth's male to the female. If an eggsac with exactly 99 viable babies was produced after Beth's male was introduced to Adams female then Beth should get 33 babies and Adam should get 66 babies.

In the case of cohabitation it must be assumed that mating has taken place as once there are multiple male partners involved there will be no proof short of DNA analysis of parentage or actual status of insemination.

A CRITICAL POINT IN MULTIPLE MALE BREEDING SITUATIONS:
All owners should be made aware that a multiple male breeding situation is in the offering. All owners should agree to a system of dividing the spoils BEFORE any mating takes place. What should happen if the owner of a female enters into a 50/50 with the owner of a male, without telling the owner of the male that the female has already been mated during her current instar? I don't know right now, but that is a situation that has the potential to get ugly... *especially* if the owner of the female denies the owner of the male right to ANY of the offspring subsequently produced!

This thread is intended to discuss the finer points of nondyadic (not two partners) breeding loans.


Hi Chris,
Thanks for your input. And many congrats on yours and John's success with the C.crawshayi, this was the first successful attempt to breed these in the US, no?

I ask because if I introduce more then one or two different males to the female my chances of a sac are increased twofold at least.

Cheers,
Steve
Ive had them pair several times over a 1 month period in the tank they were kept in,since sperm is stored and released with the eggs into the sac the more the better,ive noticed higher yields on multiple mating produced sacs. let him enjoy it while he can.lol




Quote:
Originally posted by Rookie
Hey Joy,
I'm almost afraid to ask, but did the male survive the mating process? I usually try to save most G.Pulchra pics that I come across so I can say to my friends "Few years from now, and there's Peso". But I honestly have to say those might be the nicest Pulchras I've seen so far in my hunt. Their coloration is awesome; almost jet black. They look great. They're also very appropriate for Halloween

Yes, he survived, though he wouldn't have if the female had had her way! I just caught him making a new sperm web today, so will put him back in with #1 female (the one in the picture is #2) once I've fed her up a bit.

Holley, it will be interesting to see if your male reacts differently to my females. It's amazing how differently they can respond to different (but seemingly identical) partners. The presence of Susan's male, too, may be a stimulant. I personally have had a much higher mating success rate with multiple males--100% except for the time I tried it with C. crawshayi. THAT was a circus!

Praying for fertility,
Paul
Much appreciated, Paul! :)
Joy


http://www.thebts.co.uk/old_articles/natural.htm
Most species possess a pair of spermathecae although in some species these have fused to form a single pocket. After a varying period of time the female constructs a thick silken mat upon which the eggs are deposited (between 20 and 1000 in total). The eggs are fertilised as they pass the openings to the spermathecae. Once finished, she will either cover the eggs with further silk layers suspending the egg sac within her retreat (many African species) or manipulate it into a spherical egg sac which she can grasp with her fangs (new world species, Hysterocrates spp. and most Asiatic species). The transportable egg sac species are able to move their egg sacs towards optimal heat and humidity conditions. Under captive conditions some Avicularia spp. have been seen to expose their egg sacs to the warmth of fluorescent tubes. It is likely that tarantulas expose their egg sacs to the warming early morning sun as some other mygalomorph species do (e.g. Macrothele calpeiana). The majority of tarantulas produce one egg sac between moults. There are species like Psalmopoeus cambridgei and Tapinauchenius purpureus which are capable of producing two egg sacs between moults (Pterinochilus murinus has even been known to produce three). Where multiple egg sacs are produced they are always produced consecutively following the dispersal of the spiderlings from the previous sac. Some captive, unmated females (Psalmopoeus cambridgei, P. reduncus and Tapinauchenius plumipes) have also been reported laying infertile egg sacs.

http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=2720288
Despite their general notoriety and popularity as pets, little is known of the behavioural ecology of'tarantulas' or theraphosid spiders. We studied a theraphosid of the Arizona deserts, Aphonopelma sp., to determine behavioural events crucial to successful courtship and mating. Males search for spatially scattered females and, at short range, may detect females by
substrate-borne cues. When two males are present with a single female, no direct competition such as aggression is observed. Both males may mate with a single female in rapid succession, with no evidence of post-copulatory mate guarding. Despite the potential for sexual cannibalism, courtship and mating behaviour patterns exhibit few aggressive elements and males nearly always survive sexual encounters with females. The mating system of this Aphonopelma species may best be described as a type of scramble-
competition polygyny, in which the ability of males to locate receptive females is an important determinant of mating success in males. Multiple mating by females renders predictions concerning fertilization success uncertain, due to the possibility of sperm competition and 'cryptic' female mate choice.


http://www.eeza.csic.es/eeza/documentos/articulo.pdf
 

Mina

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Did this come up because you had a difficulty? If so I'm sorry. Just make sure you make arrangements that are accepted by all parties before T's get exchanged or shipped.
 

cacoseraph

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Did this come up because you had a difficulty? If so I'm sorry. Just make sure you make arrangements that are accepted by all parties before T's get exchanged or shipped.
*ahem*

no comment ;)
 

ShadowBlade

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I believe he's clarifying this form of breeding loan arrangements. To get shares of the offspring, to make it more fair to those who contribute.

-Sean
 

Varden

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If these are the kinds of breeding loans he wants to do, then he needs to specify that at the onset of arranging a 'date' for either his male or his female.
 

becca81

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Pretty much, here's my stance...

If I have a female that I accept a breeding loan with more than one male, I will first notify both people that there are two males and any slings that are produced will be divided evenly among the three (or more) of us.
 

M.F.Bagaturov

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Hello Cacoseraph!

Good post, seems so You really looking into some papers and great opinions, that's nice.
If "This thread is intended to discuss the finer points of nondyadic (not two partners) breeding" (without "loans") i would like to talk to You cos i have some points on this and recently inspect some papers regarding this... so...
Look some papers about mating of different groups of araneids will give You some decent base that in many (if not to say most) of the spiders even the male survive the mating he would not able to mate again due to a bulb damage, cannibalised etc...
But in 99.9% of cases if theraphosid male escape successfully from mating he will be able to mate again as well as female is able to mate with several other males...
Something also to read about regarding this issue:
-MATTHEW H. PERSONS & GEORGE W. UETZ (2004) Sexual cannibalism and mate choice decisions in wolf spiders: influence of male size and secondary sexual characters. ANIMAL BEHAVIOUR, 69, 1
-Lutz Fromhage and Jutta M. Schneider. (2004) Safer sex with feeding females: sexual conflict in a cannibalistic spider. Behavioral Ecology, Nov.
- Moya-Larano et al. (2002) Climbing to reach females - romeo should be small. Evolution 56(2)
All are available online in fulltexts...
 

cacoseraph

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Well, to be perfectly honest the main impetus behind this is that i believe i am being treated very unfairly in a "surprise" nondyadic breeding loan involving a male of mine and would like to gather up the thoughts of others. [edit] I should have checked all my email before responding... the other party is apparently starting to finally understand my position... i have hope once again :)[/edit]

but the more i looked into the biology behind it and thought about it the more i realized that i could possibly turn an unfortunate situation to my like, intellectual advantage, at least

if, like Steve Nunn says, it literally more than doubles the chances of successful eggsac production then even if a 50/50 turns into a 33/33/33 everybody would average more babies gotten per male, in the long run. i kind of want to work some numbers for different scenarios at some point to see if i could quantify the advantage gained in nondyadic breeding.
 
Last edited:

M.F.Bagaturov

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I would say that to breed successfully Chromatopelma You defnately need more than one male ;)
 

KJE

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I would say that to breed successfully Chromatopelma You defnately need more than one male ;)
You don't have to have more than one male with that species. I just had a sac that was produced from a female that was only with one male. There was also only one mating. All of the eggs turned black except one. Still waiting for that one to go to 2nd instar. So, the sac was fertile.
 

M.F.Bagaturov

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HEllo KJE!

I was bred this species successfully (over 80 slings) but not happens to see an insertion and all cases of mating the males were consumed after, so I prefer to use more than one male with this species...
This also maybe was a case You got only one egg fertile.
 

KJE

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I do think there is a larger success rate with multiple males. I plan on using a few different males next time. I currently have 2 adult females and 3 juvie males. Just hoping all the males mature around the same time and the females are ready when they mature.
 

M.F.Bagaturov

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You also should hope for another thing - they should mature not only alltogether but at the "proper time" at breeding season for the species...
;)
 

cacoseraph

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bump. there is probably some interesting stuff for a lot of ppl to think about in this thread.


if more ppl went non-dyadic it could possibly *seriously* increase the number of babies in the hobby. mmm... more babies




oh, and for the record... i ended up getting totally hosed in the deal that started this. i was out $40 for shipping AND my male... and the dudes female produced 120+ babies and i didn't get a single one!
http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showpost.php?p=872435&postcount=7
 

Endagr8

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Very interesting topic!

I agree that more sperm may amount to larger or more fertile eggsacs, although I don't understand why multiple males would be needed to accomplish this, unless the female's receptiveness to a male she had already been paired with plummeted.
 

Draiman

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I agree that more sperm may amount to larger or more fertile eggsacs, although I don't understand why multiple males would be needed to accomplish this, unless the female's receptiveness to a male she had already been paired with plummeted.
I'm sure females can recognise individual males; and maybe the need for genetic diversity leads to the female rejecting a male she has already mated with while accepting other males, which then would contribute different genetic material, and in turn perhaps contribute to healthier spiderlings?
 

BrynWilliams

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Regarding female recognition of males:

Given the largely solitary nature of our theraphosid friends:

I'd imagine the chances of the same male mating with the same female are small *in the wild* due to male wanderings in pursuit of other females compounded with the presence of predators who limit their lifespan further.

Taking this into account I'd be very surprised if any recognition/rejection takes place as evolutionarily it would be disadvantagious to ignore another possible breeding attempt if an opportunity would arise

I just think it's important to remember that experimental conditions in captivity don't necessarily equate to what would occur in the wild

Thoughts?
 

cacoseraph

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sometimes i bet that is true... but me and some scabies have found two males within ~30-50' of each other in a "tarantula patch". i could easily see those two dudes just orbiting between all the mature females in there for a while... and that's why we found two MM in 1/4 acre t patch
 
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