Tarantulas Seized by Colombian Authorities

greeneyedelle

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Jan 26, 2021
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My real and slightly off-topic question: What's happening to these animals afterwards? We read "Animals Seized"...And then what? The truth is that these government(s) departments are understaffed, underfunded, and often untrained in the handling or treatment of most exotic animals. People read "Smuggled Animals Confiscated" and applaud the seizure, bemoan the poor creatures, and then they're never thought of again. I can't advocate for animal smuggling, especially when, unregulated, the vast majority of those animals are in extremely unideal situations, but to be brutally honest, they're not much better off afterwards. At least smugglers are trying to keep the animals alive, however cheaply; Governments aren't profiting by keeping them alive at all, unless they have intentions of just reselling them back into the market when no one is looking. I guess my opinion is that it's all bad anyway, but is more upsetting that they're being smuggled... or that the smuggling got caught?
The great hobbyist debate right?
 

zeeman

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May 12, 2011
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Failures of the past shouldn't forgive misdeeds of the present.

At what point is smuggling an absolute no-no and hobbyists just need to be happy with what can be produced in the hobby?
 

Wolfram1

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smugglers are committing a crime and should receive a just sentence if caught, they know what they are doing

that doesn't mean i condemn it personally in all cases, deforestation is much worse after all and if they are not cleaning out an area for profit but rather selectively try to bring new species over for research or to establish breeding then i am fine with it, its not black and white.

at the same time if we want our justice systems to work we have to respect the rules and i am fine with smugglers going to prison, most of them only care about profit after all
 

Smotzer

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Hey you guys good to be back!! I saw this yesterday, and it seems like thigs always stay thhe same, its a shame but its part of tis hobby unfortunately
 

Malum Argenteum

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Dec 16, 2020
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284
its a shame but its part of tis hobby unfortunately
It doesn't have to be. Each hobbyist can stand up and say "I'm not buying animals of smuggled lineage" and the Germans would be out of business.

The problem is that almost all hobbyists use the self-serving "well, no one else will stand up for what's right, so I shouldn't either".

If we could trace back all the ancestors of our current Ts id wager none were legally brought here.
That's silly, and perpetuates the problem, and deflects responsibility. Mexican species are currently coming in with permits; Chilean ones apparently were, since now that permits aren't available the stock has dried up. Are all the imported avics illegally imported? I doubt it. Et cetera.

Even the herp hobby is more self-policing on this than the T hobby, and that's not saying much. It is the worst part of this hobby, as I see it. There are corners -- subcultures -- in other animal hobbies that refuse to buy smuggled lineage animals, but not one in the T hobby that I've discovered.

This "oh, I wish it were different but that's just how it is" is weak and childish.
 

Wolfram1

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i agree with that partally, the problem is that just because something has a lable/permit doesnt mean it was ethically and environmentally friendly sourced

especially in the fish and reptile trade i have heard there are lots of exporters with real permits and farms that export tons of illegally sourced animals and hide this behind their export permits, that same method can extend to other animals as well

i think in the documentary by andrew smith the legal export of seized brachypelmas came up. ( i might misremember, if so pls correct me) so the legal exports contain the animals that were illegally collected by smugglers as well

the only way to be certain that populations have not been impacted by the collecting is by doing it yourself. illegal or not

now i have never done that and never will but saying this has a permit therefore it must be alright is bullshit

its like buying co2 quotas of other countries

thats what makes this so troublesome and why i only buy captive bred slings
 

Liquifin

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May 30, 2017
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As long as there is a desired value on something. The means to obtain it will never end, even if it has to be illegally sourced.

Finding a solution is not easy, and politics and ethics will always have an argument whether the intentions are good or not.
 
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Craig73

Arachnoangel
Joined
Jun 2, 2016
Messages
790
I’ll never get it, I walk a pretty straight and narrow line. Being locked up abroad is enough of a deterrent for me.

Last week at the grocery store I was only charged $13 for $100 of groceries. Thought it was taxes, turned around when I realized 90% of the items scanned weren’t on my bill and paid for it. I just don’t have a criminal mindset.
 

spideyspinneret78

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Jul 19, 2019
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As long as there is a desired value on something. The means to obtain it will never end, even if it has to illegally sourced.

Finding a solution is not easy, and politics and ethics will always have an argument whether the intentions are good or not.
It's sadly more complicated than people realize upon first glance. Of course there are unscrupulous people out there who just don't care and want to make easy money. But a lot of it too is probably motivated by poverty, especially in developing countries. Either way it's really unfortunate. It harms the planet and makes all of us in the hobby look bad. Just one more reason to always buy captive bred if possible.
 

Frogdaddy

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Nov 13, 2019
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@Frogdaddy - how many PDF species or localities are the result of smuggling?
At least a few for sure. No way I could give you an exact number. There are species of uncertain legality as well as species that were never legally exported that are in the hobby. Guess how they got to the U.S.? Europe. Guess how they got to Europe? Oh you don't need to guess.

It's interesting that there is somewhat a different mindset in the PDF hobby. I've seen people publicly called out for specimens of questionable origin. Black listed. The invert hobby doesn't yet have the balls to do it.
 

Arthroverts

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Jul 11, 2016
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These threads come and go, but although we can express our outrage over brown-boxing, we have to realize that brown-boxing is quite seriously the reason arguably 90%+ of exotic species are in circulation. Brazil claims nothing left their country legally, Mexico continues to struggle with the smuggling of wild-caught specimens, Birupes simoroxigorum from Malaysia was the poster child of wildlife smuggling not all that long ago, and so on.

As true enthusiasts, that is, people with an enthusiasm for the well-being of tarantulas both behind plastic and in the wild and are not just hobbyists, who see tarantulas as a hobby with little concern for what may be happening in said hobby more broadly, we are going to have to collectively put our money where our mouths are if we want to be able to lament this state of affairs, as this state of affairs has been going on for a long time and we all still seem rather happy to dole out money for the Next Big Thing, whether that's Ornithoctinae sp. "Honsej" or a new species of Typhochlaena.

I do not offer an answer here...I'm not sure if there is a satisfactory one and we simply do not know enough in so many situations to say anything qualitatively. But I do think we can no longer feign outrage or anger over such things as @AphonopelmaTX originally stated while turning a blind eye towards how, practically regardless of what you buy or where you get it from, the majority of specimens in captivity (regardless of species) are the descendants, sometimes quite recently, of smuggled animals.

Thanks,

Arthroverts
 

viper69

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Dec 8, 2006
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It's interesting that there is somewhat a different mindset in the PDF hobby. I've seen people publicly called out for specimens of questionable origin. Black listed. The invert hobby doesn't yet have the balls to do it.
Completely agree I observed it on frog forums.
So has another T breeder and frogger.

we both feel the collective ethics of the T hobby is the lowest of the 3 main ones of our interest- reptiles, amphibis, Ts

Though when I read stories of other hobbies it makes me wonder, the orchid hobby comes to mind in this too
 

moricollins

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@Frogdaddy - how many PDF species or localities are the result of smuggling?
Plenty.

Generally speaking, the dart frog hobby is VERY critical of frogs with dubious origins in the hobby. There have been LEGAL exports of new species into the dart frog hobby through companies who have established captive breeding in the country of origin and have the legal ability to export the captive bred offspring.

People that say "every species in the hobby started with smuggling" are incorrect.
 

Patherophis

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May 24, 2017
Messages
407
the reason they have such 'great deals' over there is becoming quite apparent
Wouldnt say so, thing is that price difference between EU and US is often quite small when it comes to new and rare species, while it seems to be biggest in case of old common species which US fails to breed sufficiently. We do not need no recent imports to eg. keep common Brachypelma species (hamorii, emilia, boehmei) at 5€ sling, 20€ female.
It is easy to blame Eu hobby, but it always seemed to me that when it comes to rate of WC and CB specimens offered for sale, WC are much more common overseas. At least in my part of Europe, it is rare to even see some WC specimen offfered.
i know, its a shame.

There are some people wo try to keep prices high on purpose in europe as well, i know one personally and i would never buy from him since i don't want to support that, despite the fact he breeds species like T. blondi, P. ultramarinus, Xenestis sp. etc. which i really want to have. I am just not paying 30EUR more than anywere else, period.

C. versicolor are cheap because a lot of people breed them, P. irminia the same, you get slings almost all the time. Also i think prices from neighbouring slavic countries keep prices low.
Yeah, i wouldnt pay more than 2€ fo P. irminia, more like 1€ if one buys several. They fall into cathegory of Ts one can get almost, and sometimes literally, for free, alongside with P. cambridgei, L. parahybana, A. geniculata, T. vagans, T. albopilosus, H. maculata, Hysterocrates spp. ...
 

nicodimus22

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Sep 26, 2013
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My real and slightly off-topic question: What's happening to these animals afterwards? We read "Animals Seized"...And then what? The truth is that these government(s) departments are understaffed, underfunded, and often untrained in the handling or treatment of most exotic animals.
Because we're talking about inverts (which the average person dislikes) here, it wouldn't surprise me at all to learn that they were simply destroyed. It would save the government time, money, and effort, and they're all about that. I'd love to be proven wrong, though.
 

Frogdaddy

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Joined
Nov 13, 2019
Messages
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@Frogdaddy - how many PDF species or localities are the result of smuggling?
I'm not putting the Invert vs pdf hobby against each other, but the invert hobby could learn some lessons here.
There are still occasional/regular legal imports of pdf's into the U.S. mostly through Panama. PDF hobbyists are so vigilant they won't even mix imports.

Say you have a frog from locale X imported in 2020, then another import from locale X in 2021. Hobbyists will keep those two import bloodlines separate. Because they can't be sure locale X in 2020 is the same locale X in 2021, even though the frogs may look identical.
I don't see that happening in the invert hobby. An imported Pamphobetus sp. Tiger stripe (made up name) will always be paired with another imported Pamphobetus sp. Tiger stripe regardless of locale or time of import. That's wrong. There should only be pairings from the same import. Not across different imports.

BTW I've missed you guys.
 

KillBoxSpider

Arachnopeon
Joined
Oct 16, 2012
Messages
29
they should amp up the charges for stuff like this at customs start giving suckers ten years in the pen if the jail time dont deter u the guys in prison for sure will
 

Frogdaddy

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Nov 13, 2019
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they should amp up the charges for stuff like this at customs start giving suckers ten years in the pen if the jail time dont deter u the guys in prison for sure will
Violent offenders are getting reduced jail time due to overcrowding and you think they will throw the book at someone snuggling bugs? Good luck with that.
 

KillBoxSpider

Arachnopeon
Joined
Oct 16, 2012
Messages
29
Violent offenders are getting reduced jail time due to overcrowding and you think they will throw the book at someone snuggling bugs? Good luck with that.
yea ur wrong paul becker got in alot of trouble for smuggling matter of fact they tossed a book at him so hard he ratted out just about everyone he knew btw
 
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