Millipede turned BLUE?!

[AuroraLights]

So, the weirdest thing just happened. Ever since I got my millipedes I've been getting occasional unexplained deaths. Not frequently, just once every few weeks or month. Their temperature and humidity are fine and I'm very careful to only give organic veggies. I've done a lot of research and failed to find anything I could be doing wrong, so I came to the conclusion that there must be some sort of disease or parasite in my population. I haven't had any deaths recently but I have noticed a new symptom: every now and again I'll see a millipede on the surface just writhing about uncontrollably, like they're having an epileptic seizure or something. Between the fits they seem perfectly healthy and their behaviour is normal, so I'm not considering euthanasia unless they get significantly worse. Even when the fits are happening they seem weirdly unbothered by them, I've never seen them secrete at all. It's very upsetting to know that my milli-babies are ill and there's nothing I can do about it, except make them as comfortable as possible for the time they have left. However, while that's all very sad it isn't the crazy thing I wanted to talk about. It gets weirder.
About two months ago I noticed some white woodlice had gotten into my substrate, and I wondered if that might be the cause of the deaths (this was before the seizures started). Because I was busy with exams I didn't have time to treat and redo the whole tank, so I decided to move my millipedes to a temporary tank with fresh substrate until I could deal with the isopod problem. I know that you shouldn't dig up millipedes unless it's totally necessary so I only moved them when I caught them on the surface. After about a week or so I'd moved four of the five millipedes, but the fifth one (an S.sp8) didn't turn up even after a month. I know it's not uncommon for millipedes to burrow for a long time, but given all the deaths I'd been having I wasn't too hopeful. But this morning, nearly two months later, she appeared ... and she's BLUE?! Not a super bright blue, more of a greyish shade, but definitely noticeably blue. If I didn't know better I'd think she was a Acladocricus sp. (AKA Philippine giant blue) but she isn't. She's a Spirostreptidae sp.8 from Africa, and they're supposed to be green or greenish-brown, which she was when I first got her. I've included a picture to show you what I mean, as well as a photo of an S.sp.8 with normal colouring to compare with.
At the moment I only have two guesses as to what might have caused this:
1. My first thought was iridovirus. I know it's quite common in isopods and apparently there is also a strain that affects insects, so maybe there could be one that affects millipedes? However I've done a bit of research and I can't find any mentions of this, so I think it's unlikely.
2. I know that a lot of animals which appear green do so by a combination of yellow pigment and blue structural colour. I'm wondering if, during her recent moult, she was unable to produce yellow pigment for some reason, possibly to do with the disease, and has therefore been left with only the blue part of her colouring. This is also supported by the fact that she seems to have a lot of moulting defects, not too big but more of them than I've seen before on a single millipede before. She has calcium mixed in the substrate as well as being given both calcium and protein regularly in the form of supplemental foods, so I don't think it's a diet problem. Unless perhaps I've been giving them too much?

Either way I don't think this is a good thing, but I'll try to keep her as comfortable as possible and hope her and her friends can pull through whatever is happening. I'd love to know what you guys think.

 

[MontePython]

Oh wow! That IS really bizarre - like knowing she's a S. sp. 8, she's recognisable to me as one except just....inexplicably blue! How strange.

I've not heard of iridovirus in millipedes either, though as you say, if it can affect insects, it's not impossible.

I hope everyone pulls through and you're able to figure out what caused it!

 

[MadMilli]

The blue image looks like she’s either molting or already deceased. There are cracks in the exoskeleton you can see if you zoom in near the top around the bend points. Is the millipede still moving while in that blue state and is it humid enough in there for it to molt? Is the substrate deep enough? I’ve also witnessed an A. gigas molt on the surface with a very similar appearance so make sure you don’t disturb it.

 

[AuroraLights]

The blue image looks like she’s either molting or already deceased. There are cracks in the exoskeleton you can see if you zoom in near the top around the bend points. Is the millipede still moving while in that blue state and is it humid enough in there for it to molt? Is the substrate deep enough? I’ve also witnessed an A. gigas molt on the surface with a very similar appearance so make sure you don’t disturb it.

That's interesting, I didn't know moulting millipedes could look blue. She came out by herself and was walking around so she wasn't dead. She even ate a bit of fishfood. I didn't really notice anything that looked like cracks so it might just be the photot, or I might have missed it. To be honest I was too shocked by the colour to pay attention to much else!
I have to admit I hadn't been paying as much attention to the tank as I usually would because of exams, but the hygrometer was still reading 70-90% and the live moss hadn't died. I suppose the substrate could still have dried out even if the air stayed humid, but wouldn't that have killed the moss? It might still be humidity though, the moss could just be hardier than I thought. Come to think of it, the suction cup for the hygrometer probe actually did fall of the wall, and being closer to the substrate would have made it give higher readings so maybe you're onto something. There isn't any condensation on the sides of the tank which there used to be before, but the soil doesn't look any lighter. Or maybe the isopods disturbed her while she was moulting wich made her wake up too quickly? I moved her into the new isopod-free tank and she's burrowed underground now, so hopefully she'll be able to pull through. I'll definitely be keeping a closer eye on the humidity from now on. The substrate is about 15cm and they've been able to dig tunnels in it no problem.

 

[MadMilli]

That's interesting, I didn't know moulting millipedes could look blue. She came out by herself and was walking around so she wasn't dead. She even ate a bit of fishfood. I didn't really notice anything that looked like cracks so it might just be the photot, or I might have missed it. To be honest I was too shocked by the colour to pay attention to much else!
I have to admit I hadn't been paying as much attention to the tank as I usually would because of exams, but the hygrometer was still reading 70-90% and the live moss hadn't died. I suppose the substrate could still have dried out even if the air stayed humid, but wouldn't that have killed the moss? It might still be humidity though, the moss could just be hardier than I thought. Come to think of it, the suction cup for the hygrometer probe actually did fall of the wall, and being closer to the substrate would have made it give higher readings so maybe you're onto something. There isn't any condensation on the sides of the tank which there used to be before, but the soil doesn't look any lighter. Or maybe the isopods disturbed her while she was moulting wich made her wake up too quickly? I moved her into the new isopod-free tank and she's burrowed underground now, so hopefully she'll be able to pull through. I'll definitely be keeping a closer eye on the humidity from now on. The substrate is about 15cm and they've been able to dig tunnels in it no problem.

If there are isopods in the tank I would definitely remove them. Isopods have been documented by a few keepers that I’m familiar with to have chewed on / eaten molting millipedes. I’m not one to fall into myths or anything like the mealworms eating lizards but this has definitely been proven before, I wish it was more well known in the community so no fault on you. Just separate the millipede carefully into a new setup.


These are the cracks I’m referring to. Definitely could be a molting issue with the isopods being present. Even if they aren’t bothering the millipede it still could be a molting issue but I wouldn’t take the risk of keeping them together any longer if you can. I hope this helps

 

[Arthroverts]

First...you are absolutely positive this wasn't a misidentified Acladocricus? They can look very green at certain stages in development, and while it would be a stretch, I still think it might be possible it was sold under the wrong name.

Otherwise I agree with @MadMilli. I'll have to consider this for a while, but it certainly isn't normal. Those cracks don't look good at all either.

Thanks,

Arthroverts

 

[AuroraLights]

If there are isopods in the tank I would definitely remove them. Isopods have been documented by a few keepers that I’m familiar with to have chewed on / eaten molting millipedes. I’m not one to fall into myths or anything like the mealworms eating lizards but this has definitely been proven before, I wish it was more well known in the community so no fault on you. Just separate the millipede carefully into a new setup.

View attachment 347489
These are the cracks I’m referring to. Definitely could be a molting issue with the isopods being present. Even if they aren’t bothering the millipede it still could be a molting issue but I wouldn’t take the risk of keeping them together any longer if you can. I hope this helps

Yeah, I was in the process of removing the millipedes but because she was already moulting I didn't want to dig her up. I actually didn't add the isopods because I know they are bad, they were in some substrate I bought at a fair and I didn't know. As soon as I noticed them I moved the millipedes to a fresh tank, but maybe I was too late for this girl.

First...you are absolutely positive this wasn't a misidentified Acladocricus? They can look very green at certain stages in development, and while it would be a stretch, I still think it might be possible it was sold under the wrong name.

Otherwise I agree with @MadMilli. I'll have to consider this for a while, but it certainly isn't normal. Those cracks don't look good at all either.

Thanks,

Arthroverts

Hmm, that's actually a possibility I hadn't considered. If I see her again and she's still blue I will try to identify her.
The 'cracks' at the top are actually not cracks, they are where her segments have formed with jagged edges instead of straight ones. I'm not sure sure if that's any better though... I'm not sure about the cracks at the bottom, I don't remember noticing them.
If she is an Acladocricus that could actually explain it. I know they're supposed to need 90%+ humidity so even though it was still high seventies it would have been too little for her. They're also supposed to need very high amounts of calcium and be quite prone to moulting defects, if I remember correctly.

 

[Arthroverts]

Hmm, that's actually a possibility I hadn't considered. If I see her again and she's still blue I will try to identify her.
The 'cracks' at the top are actually not cracks, they are where her segments have formed with jagged edges instead of straight ones. I'm not sure sure if that's any better though... I'm not sure about the cracks at the bottom, I don't remember noticing them.
If she is an Acladocricus that could actually explain it. I know they're supposed to need 90%+ humidity so even though it was still high seventies it would have been too little for her. They're also supposed to need very high amounts of calcium and be quite prone to moulting defects, if I remember correctly.

Humidity gauges tend to be poor measures of adequate moisture; getting in tune with how quickly the soil dries out and then maintaining optimum soil moisture and temperature works much better for millipedes in my experience.
I am not sure where you heard that they were more prone to molting defects (adults I think can develop scarring from molts later in life for unknown reasons however), and I have never heard anything about any species even requiring calcium to begin with (it is a supplement more for our peace of mind it seems oftentimes).

Thanks,

Arthroverts

 

[AuroraLights]

Humidity gauges tend to be poor measures of adequate moisture; getting in tune with how quickly the soil dries out and then maintaining optimum soil moisture and temperature works much better for millipedes in my experience.
I am not sure where you heard that they were more prone to molting defects (adults I think can develop scarring from molts later in life for unknown reasons however), and I have never heard anything about any species even requiring calcium to begin with (it is a supplement more for our peace of mind it seems oftentimes).

Thanks,

Arthroverts

Okay, I will be more careful from now on and not rely on the hygrometer so much.
I can't remember where I heard about them needing more calcium so it was probably just a rumour. It's hard to tell what's fact and what's not when there's so much conflicting information about millipedes online.

Edit: I just checked where it said about the calcium and it was actually in Shura Sigling's book. It didn't actually mention moulting defects, it just said it could cause 'softening of the exoskeleton', but I suppose that might contribute to moulting defects. I hope it's okay to post the paragraph here, no copyright infringement is intended.

 

[AuroraLights]

She was out eating a piece of cucumber this morning so I got her out and had a look at her. I would say from the shape of her collum she looked more like a Spirostreptid than a Spirobolid to me, but I've never tried to do this before so I'm not very confident in my judgement. I tried to get a photo but I couldn't get the light or angle right and I didn't want to stress her too much so I had to put her back. She is less blue than she was at first, more of a steel-grey colour, but you can still see blue in the light.
I also had a look at her scarring and while it does look pretty bad the good news is I don't think any of the cracks have gone through the top layer of her cuticle (if you call it that?). She also has some dents and wrinkles, poor thing, I feel so bad for her. I feel like I've really let her down as an owner, but I suppose all I can do about it now is learn from my mistakes.
At least I have seen her eating, drinking and moving around fine so I'm pretty confident she will pull through. I'll keep you guys updated on any developments.

Edit: I've looked at some photos of Acladocricus online and I'm fairly confident now that her collum is not the right shape to be a Philippine Blue. The mystery continues.

 

[MadMilli]

She was out eating a piece of cucumber this morning so I got her out and had a look at her. I would say from the shape of her collum she looked more like a Spirostreptid than a Spirobolid to me, but I've never tried to do this before so I'm not very confident in my judgement. I tried to get a photo but I couldn't get the light or angle right and I didn't want to stress her too much so I had to put her back. She is less blue than she was at first, more of a steel-grey colour, but you can still see blue in the light.
I also had a look at her scarring and while it does look pretty bad the good news is I don't think any of the cracks have gone through the top layer of her cuticle (if you call it that?). She also has some dents and wrinkles, poor thing, I feel so bad for her. I feel like I've really let her down as an owner, but I suppose all I can do about it now is learn from my mistakes.
At least I have seen her eating, drinking and moving around fine so I'm pretty confident she will pull through. I'll keep you guys updated on any developments.

Edit: I've looked at some photos of Acladocricus online and I'm fairly confident now that her collum is not the right shape to be a Philippine Blue. The mystery continues.

My theory is that the cracks are the outer layer of her exoskeleton that she’s molting off, it’s just still on her for some reason - possibly related to the presence of isopods in the tank as I said before. I’m sorry to hear they snuck in from the fair substrate, that doesn’t surprise me at all and isn’t necessarily your fault. I had dwarf white isopods who hitchhiked into one of my tanks on the millipede with no substrate. You haven’t let her down as her caretaker, don’t beat yourself up, millipede health complications happen all the time for seemingly no reason. Anything new with her condition? Color changes? I hope she’s doing okay!

 

[AuroraLights]

My theory is that the cracks are the outer layer of her exoskeleton that she’s molting off, it’s just still on her for some reason - possibly related to the presence of isopods in the tank as I said before. I’m sorry to hear they snuck in from the fair substrate, that doesn’t surprise me at all and isn’t necessarily your fault. I had dwarf white isopods who hitchhiked into one of my tanks on the millipede with no substrate. You haven’t let her down as her caretaker, don’t beat yourself up, millipede health complications happen all the time for seemingly no reason. Anything new with her condition? Color changes? I hope she’s doing okay!

Thank you.
I saw her again last night and there doesn't seem to have been any change in colour, she is still blue-grey rather than green-brown. She still seems quite healthy and active but the scarring hasn't changed. I'm hoping that she has at least one moult left before adulthood and that her next moult will be more successful.

 

[MontePython]

Thank you.
I saw her again last night and there doesn't seem to have been any change in colour, she is still blue-grey rather than green-brown. She still seems quite healthy and active but the scarring hasn't changed. I'm hoping that she has at least one moult left before adulthood and that her next moult will be more successful.

I definitely understand that feeling - I had a moulting mishap with my D. macracanthus that has left him pretty scarred up, but he's also behaving very normally and is otherwise healthy. Hopefully everyone ends up getting one more (successful) moult in, or at least manages to keep on behaving healthily

 

[Arthroverts]

Thank you.
I saw her again last night and there doesn't seem to have been any change in colour, she is still blue-grey rather than green-brown. She still seems quite healthy and active but the scarring hasn't changed. I'm hoping that she has at least one moult left before adulthood and that her next moult will be more successful.

Many millipede species continue molting after maturity, though information is lacking for S. sp. "8" or whatever this species is.
Do you have pictures of the specimen from before the molt?

Thanks,

Arthroverts

 

[AuroraLights]

Many millipede species continue molting after maturity, though information is lacking for S. sp. "8" or whatever this species is.
Do you have pictures of the specimen from before the molt?

Thanks,

Arthroverts

She wasn't one of the ones I could tell apart before (there were three that looked very similar), so I don't know which photos are of her. I know she wasn't bright green though, more of a brown colour like the one in this photo:
I just assumed she wouldn't moult after adulthood because I thought that none of the Spirostreptids did, but I could be wrong about her being a Spirostreptid anyway.

 

[AuroraLights]

Update:
Luckily my little Bluebird seems to be doing well and I see her out pretty much every day, in fact she's one of my more active millipedes. Interestingly, she now looks slightly more green. She still stands out a lot from the others but there is a definite green tinge to her blue now, as you can see from this photo I just took. I wonder if in time she will go back to normal colour without even needing a moult? I still wish she would moult soon, because I'm a bit concerned about all the scars.

 

[MontePython]

Oh yeah! I can definitely see the green tinge (especially comparing with earlier pictures).

It's hard to tell with the scars. They seem to look similar to the ones on my D. macracanthus (though it's hard to tell, what with him being black), and he's seems pretty unbothered by them, so it's difficult to judge if there's more to them than looking gnarly.

The fact that she's up and about seems promising though! Hopefully things will continue to develop in a positive way.

 

[AuroraLights]

Oh yeah! I can definitely see the green tinge (especially comparing with earlier pictures).

It's hard to tell with the scars. They seem to look similar to the ones on my D. macracanthus (though it's hard to tell, what with him being black), and he's seems pretty unbothered by them, so it's difficult to judge if there's more to them than looking gnarly.

The fact that she's up and about seems promising though! Hopefully things will continue to develop in a positive way.

Thanks, I'm pretty hopeful about her. The scars don't bother her and they haven't deteriated at all, so I'm thinking there's probably no underlying injuries. My only concern is that the cracks might be an infection risk, but I think I read somewhere that millipede exoskeletons have multiple layers so hopeful a crack in the top one won't be too much of a problem. It's reassuring to hear your D. macracanthus is doing well, hopefully Bluebird will be fine too.

 

[Arthroverts]

Good to hear!
I don't think you have a mistaken Acladocricus now, that looks very much like an off-color S. sp. "8". Will be interesting to see what happens in terms of her coloration....

Thanks,

Arthroverts

 

[AuroraLights]

Well, she's bright green now! I wonder if it's actually a normal part of the moulting sequence for this species and she just came up early because it was getting too dry? Although I'm surprised that she would eat and be so active if she was still in the moulting process. One of the others moulted before and she never looked blue, but perhaps she just stayed underground longer so I missed it.