M. Balfouri options

[Chebe6886]

When I decided to get a group of Balfouri, I toyed with the idea of doing a communal but figured I eventually go with separating them. After doing plenty of research on communal projects with only balfouri, it seems they do way better that way. They are more active, grow faster, and actually seem to enjoy being together. I kind of am thinking that would be for the best for the spiders and myself(fewer enclosures to maintain). Yet my head keeps saying I should be more careful. Wanted get some opinions from more seasoned owners of this species either first hand or being involved closely with someone who has...
They come tomorrow and I’m still not sure but do have enclosures for either method ready to go.

 

[moricollins]

How long have you been keeping tarantulas? Are you prepared to lose them if YOUR communal setup doesn't work? Even if other people have had good success with this, it doesn't mean you will.

I'll admit, I'm risk averse when it comes to pets. Why take an unnecessary risk?

 

[BrittanyS]

I have a communal of 9 M. Balfouris. The communal started at 9 and they were all 1/2" slings. As of a week ago, I was still able to count all nine when they came out to eat. They are now all about an inch and all eat together. I did notice that when I would put feeders in, they would all flock to one feeder until it was gone, so they'd be piled on top of each other. I got nervous that a fang would hit another spider instead of the feeder, so I changed their feeding to putting in hissers (killed, of course) instead, so even if they pile on the same feeder, there's room for all nine to eat at once. I had put them in a very oversized enclosure and gave multiple burrowing options. They all chose to settle in the same burrow.

As far as behavior differences between having them separate versus in a communal, when I started my communal, I also got three to house individually. I see the ones in the communal sitting out on their webbed burrow-entrance every night. The ones who are alone, I barely ever see them. They take food down to their burrow to eat. Even when I fed the communal single small roaches, they didn't drag them down, they simply ate them where they found them. It kind of seemed like they had more confidence since they weren't alone.

On another note, there are more risks with a communal as far as having multiple tarantulas in an enclosure. More risk during husbandry and whatnot, as well as definitely more risk during rehousing. I haven't had to do that yet, but I can imagine it will be loads of fun lol

I haven't had mine very long, as they are only an inch+, so hopefully other people can chime in that have more experience than me in this situation

 

[Liquifin]

Communals have been a mix of what everyone says in my experience so far. While some things said are true about communals, there are others are not really true with my experience so far. I think one thing that people said that isn't really true is that communals tend to be out more, but what contradicts this idea is that you have more number of specimens together, so you're going to have a higher chance of seeing all or a few out. I currently have decided to start a communal of 13 slings (originally 15) and also 12 slings kept separately, which all came from the same sac. In the communal, I would see around 5-6 out on average. Now in comparison to the 12 specimens kept separately, I normally see 5-7 out of their little web curtains. So honestly I believe that the idea of communals being out more is just a numbers game and not really a true thing. One thing that is true however, is that they certainly eat much, much, better as a communal which is a plus. While they do eat better together, the idea of communals growing faster than being kept separately is not really true in my experiences so far. While there is one larger specimen in the communal than the rest, it's not enough to prove anything as the rest of the communal is about the same size as the 12 kept separately.

In the original 15 communal two of them were runts and would not eat or drink anything offered which they died very small at 1/8'' at 2nd instar. The other 13 are thriving very well, but one of them is twice the size of others which this specimen tends to eat way more than the others.

Other than that, it's not very special. M. balfouri is an overrated species in my opinion, despite owning over dozens of them and still buying more of them sine they're easy to breed and sell very quick. I still don't get the appeal of having them besides making communals or selling them very quick in response to demand. I still keep a majority of mines separate, so I can monitor their individual growth and habits for future breeding projects.

 

[Chebe6886]

How long have you been keeping tarantulas? Are you prepared to lose them if YOUR communal setup doesn't work? Even if other people have had good success with this, it doesn't mean you will.

I'll admit, I'm risk averse when it comes to pets. Why take an unnecessary risk?

I’ve been keeping Ts for 10+ years or so. I’ve raised many slings from super easy to to crazy demanding. I realize the risk I’m taking and I can definitely deal with the consequences. My issue is it seems almost all research supports the fact that they do better in a communal setup. I honestly would prefer to raise them separately but it appears that would be doing them a disservice. Lots of positives and just not seeing many documented negatives. I very rarely struggle with making decisions and this is a tough one

 

[testdasi]

Communals have been a mix of what everyone says in my experience so far. While some things said are true about communals, there are others are not really true with my experience so far. I think one thing that people said that isn't really true is that communals tend to be out more, but what contradicts this idea is that you have more number of specimens together, so you're going to have a higher chance of seeing all or a few out. I currently have decided to start a communal of 13 slings (originally 15) and also 12 slings kept separately, which all came from the same sac. In the communal, I would see around 5-6 out on average. Now in comparison to the 12 specimens kept separately, I normally see 5-7 out of their little web curtains. So honestly I believe that the idea of communals being out more is just a numbers game and not really a true thing. One thing that is true however, is that they certainly eat much, much, better as a communal which is a plus. While they do eat better together, the idea of communals growing faster than being kept separately is not really true in my experiences so far. While there is one larger specimen in the communal that the rest, it's not enough to prove anything as the rest of the communal is about the same size as the 12 kept separately.

In the original 15 communal two of them were runts and would not eat or drink anything offered which they died very small at 1/8'' at 2nd instar. The other 13 are thriving very well, but one of them is twice the size of others which this specimen tends to eat way more than the others.

Other than that, it's not very special. M. balfouri is an overrated species in my opinion, despite owning over dozens of them and still buying more of them sine they're easy to breed and sell very quick. I still don't get the appeal of having them besides making communals or selling them very quick in response to demand. I still keep a majority of mines separate, so I can monitor their individual growth and habits for future breeding projects.

I think your "overrated" assessment is missing the point.

• Your observation about visibility proportional to number of T's could very well be true. However, beside breeders / sellers, most people don't have 12 individual enclosures keeping the same T specie in each enclosure. Most have one or two enclosures of the same specie. So the visibility assessment (thus "rating") is based on one minus the probability that an enclosure is empty when observed. And assuming all specimens of the same specie has similar probability of being out, having more specimens in the same enclosure always decreases the probability of it being empty (it's just math) and thus increase the visibility rating.
• For every one person that wants a M. balfouri communal, there may be four - five - six - seven people wanting something in the BAG trinity (Brachypelma - Aphonopelma - Gramostola). But that one person wants 10 T's to start a communal so that, if observed from the demand of individual T, creates the impression that there are many people wanting M. balfouri but in reality it's just few people wanting a lot of them.
  • For example, a C. versicolor would be overrated since it's high demand comes from its look, which is only good under strong lighting (e.g. flash / pro vid light). In typically room lighting, it's just a bit more than a black fuzz ball. A very cute one but no where close to those poster pictures.
  • In contrast, The M. balfouri high demand comes from people doing communal set up (as I mentioned above). Given the rarity of species happy with living communally and the general assessment that the M. balfouri is more accepting to living communally, as opposed to Poecilotheria (which requires careful enclosure size control so as they don't become territorial and eat each other), I don't see how that is overrated. Just as a BAG specie is beginner friendly, the M. balfouri is communal T beginner friendly.

You probably are just too used to seeing too many M. balfouri since you sell them. It's like eating pizza every day, it gets old pretty quick.

 

[Chebe6886]

Thanks for the replies. Just trying to get as many good opinions as possible. Like I said initially had no thoughts of communal scenario. I only ordered 5 to give myself a better chance of getting a female(had bad luck recently). But after ordering I started probing around and what do you know. Seems the not only tolerate each other but seem to do better even if it’s only relatively speaking g a small difference. Of all the communals I’ve seen with 60+ tarantulas only a couple have gone missing and we all know slings and even adults die regardless what you do at a comparable rate.

 

[viper69]

it seems they do way better that wa

Except there's no scientific data to support this. Plenty of anecdotal data. What do we know 1. No T species has ever been observed in the wild living a true communal life style. 2. Captivity can induce unnatural behaviors 3. Humans find this massive amount of delight in putting animals together hoping to have a party.

I've raised M. balfouri, in a standard setup, and guess what, they did just fine by themselves.. They weren't morose, and I saw them plenty.

. While there is one larger specimen in the communal that the rest

And 12 became 1....

I can definitely deal with the consequences. My issue is it seems almost all research supports the fact that they do better in a communal setup. I honestly would prefer to raise them separately but it appears that would be doing them a disservice. Lots of positives and just not seeing many documented negatives. I very rarely struggle with making decisions and this is a tough one

Let's be clear here, there are NO consequences to you should a communal fail. Nothing of merit happens to you, it's not your life at stake here now is it--no it's not.

Doing them a disservice-- raising them in a manner that we absolutely have no data from the wild to support.that's a disservice

Documented- trust me few people come to the forum to report their direct failures.

Until I learn they live like this in the wild, I'm not willing to play god and put their lives at risk.

 

[testdasi]

Until I learn they live like this in the wild, I'm not willing to play god and put their lives at risk.

LOL mate. You are in a glass house by keeping T in captivity to begin with. Don't throw stones at other keepers.

 

[moricollins]

Back in the early 2000's numerous people were trying to keep Poecilotheria metallica communally, since there were reports of (short term) success doing so. Unsurprisingly, none of these setups fared well over the long-term.

The point I think Viper is trying to make is: this species fares well while kept individually.

Communal setups, even when people have been having success, are still a risk by introducing what seems to be an unnatural situation for the tarantulas (small box, many siblings together, etc.)

The lifespan of this species is said to be 10-14 years, have people had communal setups that lasted this long?
What about when they become adult and want to breed, if they last they long? Would a gravid female seek and destroy the others in the group?

*Steps off the soapbox*

 

[viper69]

LOL mate. You are in a glass house by keeping T in captivity to begin with. Don't throw stones at other keepers.

You missed my point completely based on your response. See the response above this to get my point.

 

[Chebe6886]

Well I got these guys and they were a bit smaller than expected and I just couldn’t bring myself to put them in a relative mammoth enclosure. They are happy and munching on meal worm chunks

 

[Chebe6886]

 

[Chebe6886]

 

[CJJon]

Well I got these guys and they were a bit smaller than expected and I just couldn’t bring myself to put them in a relative mammoth enclosure. They are happy and munching on meal worm chunks

So, you will keep them individually then?

 

[Chebe6886]

Yeh don’t see putting them together. The container was just to big to put 1/4” slings in to me. I absolutely agree that would have to start as early as possible. So don’t see myself doing that by the time they molt once or twice. As long as they are eating well that’s really all that matters to me and this way I can be sure

 

[Ian14]

LOL mate. You are in a glass house by keeping T in captivity to begin with. Don't throw stones at other keepers.

I think the point being made was that natural, wild communes of balfouri are not known to exist. The accepted behaviour of all ts is that they are solitary and do not tolerate other ts near them. So keeping a species in a commune just because they tolerate each other is for the convenience and enjoyment of the owner, not the welfare of the spider.
I may be wrong but is it not the case that balfouri kept communally do not reproduce? Because if that is the case then, for me, that is the single most important factor in showing that this is not a natural way of living. The purpose of a lifeform is to reproduce and continue the species. If they have never been bred in a communal setting, then this is not how they live in the wild.

 

[Royalty]

I have seen lots of videos of people finding t's living in rather close proximity to one another. Not the same as a communal but just wanted to mention they do not always live with social distancing laws.

Balfouri have been observed living in family groups with the mother bringing them prekilled prey.

That being said, there have been successful and failed communals. I myself decided to get a solitary one even though I fantasize about having a communal. They are a gorgeous species.

I do think more research has to be done because it is really limited so we can not say for sure there are not wild communals. They may do better spreading out in the wild to find their own sources of prey unless they're in a good place with enough food for all to share.

 

[Chebe6886]

I’m on the same page as til they find multiple females mating and rearing children in the same burrow they aren’t really communal.
Do the young do very well growing up together and with mom? Absolutely. There’s just a point at which they will all separate. If it doesn’t happen for some reason when younger it definitely will start when the males mature and leave home. It will happen again once females reach maturity and mate.

 

[Arachnid Addicted]

I made a comment about my experience and thoughts on "communal" in another thread. Here it is:

So, I'm gonna be sincere here, not rude, just extremely sincere, it's always good to be clear first. Lol.

Since I have an adult female, paired her 4x already, the first male lived with her from the time he got mature, til he died in there and, here's an interesting thing:
In this period, I saw him got outside the burrow where the two of them lived, got a prey, entered the burrow again and shared the prey with the female. They were also almost all the time together, the male died after a year, because he was old.

That said, she killed all the other 3 males, 2 of them she ate, the other she just killed and left there. I also noticed she ate a few slings and to complete, some friends of mine related canibalism between those slings, from the same eggsac.

I dont know why these things happened, looking up for articles and couldn't find any scientifical evidence about communal and/or behaviors like the 1st paired showed, in situ.

So, I also believe communals aren't a natural thing and, answering to your thread (which asks for advice), my suggestion to you is don't do it.

Sure you can have a good experience like lots of keepers have, but you also can be part of the group I belong, which is the bad ones. Lol.

Anyways, think of your Ts and how is the best and safer way for them to be kept, not how you'd like for them to be kept.

Last thing, IMO, there's a difference between communal species and tolerant ones, tarantulas are in the second group, and some of them can be really intolerant.