Life after death?

[Tfisher]

Tfisher,
I just have to ask...
Do you still think your deceased female was a genic?

Yes I do.....

 

[Tfisher]

Here's some pairing pictures

 

[KcFerry]

I give up!:wall:

 

[Tfisher]

I give up!:wall:

didnt you want to see the pairing pictures??

 

[Sam_Peanuts]

Don't those two have the long rectangular shape you were talking about though? Doesn't look very short or triangular like on either one of them to me from the mating pictures.

 

[Exoskeleton Invertebrates]

I spoke with Michael Jacobi at the North American Reptile Breeders Conference in Tinley Park, IL in March of this year. I was looking for someone selling A. brocklehursti, and he told me that some people believe they are two different species but they are wrong. He said brocklehursti IS geniculata. Also, there is no listing for brocklehursti on his Tarantula Bibliography.

http://www.exoticfauna.com/tarantulabibliography/Acanthoscurria.html

I have spoken with Kelly Swift and he told me that they are two different species. Micheal Jacobi is no longer selling tarantulas, getting out of the hobby, has bred far less tarantulas than Kelly Swift, and has less knowledge about tarantulas than Kelly Swift.

Again, I trust the word of Kelly Swift any day over Michael Jacobi.

Bottom line is if the argument is that brocklehursti should be called a different name than brocklehursti that's fine. It does not change the fact Tfisher attempted to breed two different specimen that should habve not been attempted to breed to get babies out of them. He attempted to breed Acanthoscurria geniculata "Giant White Knee" with Acanthoscurria sp. "Giant White Banded". He tried to create viability with no possibility a huge waste of time in my opinion.

http://www.swiftinverts.com/

---------- Post added 09-17-2015 at 09:56 PM ----------

Throughout the years that I've know Kelly, Kelly and I had many conversations of Grammostola porteri and Grammostola rosea should be classify as different species. Finally both were described as two different species. Just because you see two color morphs tarantulas does not mean that they are the same species.

Because of this reason Michael Jabobi should not agree so quickly with taxonomists, taxonomist had there share of creating a mess. Sure.......keep an open mind of the possibility until other wise confirm. Until than don't try to muddled the hobby even further like Tfisher tried to attempt.

Again I trust Kelly Swift than Michael Jacobi...............Finished with this asinine thread.

 

[Swifty]

Ok, Thanks for the compliment Jose, but it really isn't a contest about what I know, or Michael knows. Both Michael and I have been dealing with tarantulas longer than many on these boards have taken their first steps. Lets just say we know a few things, but neither one of us are going to claim we know it all. I understand what Michael claims, but on this subject, I don't agree. A. geniculata, and A. brocklehursti have only been in the U.S. hobby for 15 or so years. I remember buying A. geniculata slings wholesale for $50 at 1/4". I've produced A. geniculata, but not A. brocklehursti, but I have seen many of these in my career, but this doesn't make me an expert. We can break down species using geographical range, physical appearance, spermathecae, and even DNA, but not all of these methods are going to have the same results. Even if I believe these are two different species, doesn't make it fact. What I am saying is, if it is not concrete fact, why breed them? Is there a shortage of either one? My suggestion is to keep them seperate.

 

[Angel Minkov]

Jose, I don't think you're in a spot to disagree with taxonomists. Taxonomy is an ever-changing sphere. They don't have a share of messing up OUR hobby. The only people doing it is us. You and Kelly had a conversation porteri and rosea are different species, but who did the work on that? Taxonomists. Who described them in the first place? Taxonomists. Kelly is a very knowledgeable guy, so is Michael. They've both contributed to the hobby in their own way

 

[Sam_Peanuts]

Throughout the years that I've know Kelly, Kelly and I had many conversations of Grammostola porteri and Grammostola rosea should be classify as different species. Finally both were described as two different species.

A bit off topic, but they have? When did it happen? I've never actually seen anybody mention it in the many many threads about the subject. I was under the impression nobody had did the work yet.

 

[Swifty]

Actually, the Grammostola conversation between Jose and I, was long before taxonomists were looking into these being two different species, and it was the fact that people were considering the red morphs and the brown morphs to be color variants of the same species. I admit it was only speculation on my part. This subject is still contraversal. My point is from a breeder standpoint. If you breed a red form male to a red form female, you will get ALL red form offspring. Same thing with the A. geniculata and A. brocklehusti. The reason I know this with A. brocklehursti without breeding them, is I have raised large 2nd instar from breeders I've trusted, also seeing the parents. As spiderlings it's hard to tell, but I've raised large numbers of these to adults from these breedings, and not one looked any different than the mother and father. If these were actually the same species, you would have variants throughout, because somewhere down the line the het genes would come through. Like I said before, I'm a breeder, not a taxonomist, but MY point is, don't be in a hurry to stamp anything that hasn't been proven 100%. It won't hurt a bit to be cautious, and keep species like this seperate for now.

 

[Tfisher]

and I do understand that. I was wrong for doing it I will say. Its good that the sac was not viable, but from a breeders POV I had two of said species that I purchased with names that I had no reason to question. The fact is I am no expert, and whatever the outcome is it doesnt matter because the mother is dead and the slings are not going as hoped. I still do not agree that my species was brock but thats neither here nor there, I think the point of this whole situation is that this is a community hobby, if someone has a belief that I may be doing something wrong I will take that into consideration, after all its everyone else it affects. So Jose Im sorry for giving you a hard time, your opinions were true and were only to protect the hobby. Every species that I decide to breed in the future will hit the ID section just for further confirmation. It cant hurt and even if I may have the wrong species we have an amazing community to help get the right ones.

 

[Exoskeleton Invertebrates]

Jose, I don't think you're in a spot to disagree with taxonomists. Taxonomy is an ever-changing sphere. They don't have a share of messing up OUR hobby. The only people doing it is us. You and Kelly had a conversation porteri and rosea are different species, but who did the work on that? Taxonomists. Who described them in the first place? Taxonomists. Kelly is a very knowledgeable guy, so is Michael. They've both contributed to the hobby in their own way

As I agree and support taxonomist to a certain degree. There are taxonomist that insist of making name change to a species like Poecilotheria vittata, changing the name to pederseni and than vittata. That's one example and can list a few others.

As for us making a mess to the hobby I agree also. But as you can see I'm trying to make somewhat of a difference that it does not happen any further when I see post like this one. If we can prevent situations like this one we can make a difference in our hobby.

Yes I understand that porteri and rosea was described by taxonomist, of course they're the only ones that can. And I'm glad that this species is resolve.

---------- Post added 09-18-2015 at 04:42 PM ----------

Actually, the Grammostola conversation between Jose and I, was long before taxonomists were looking into these being two different species, and it was the fact that people were considering the red morphs and the brown morphs to be color variants of the same species. I admit it was only speculation on my part. This subject is still contraversal. My point is from a breeder standpoint. If you breed a red form male to a red form female, you will get ALL red form offspring. Same thing with the A. geniculata and A. brocklehusti. The reason I know this with A. brocklehursti without breeding them, is I have raised large 2nd instar from breeders I've trusted, also seeing the parents. As spiderlings it's hard to tell, but I've raised large numbers of these to adults from these breedings, and not one looked any different than the mother and father. If these were actually the same species, you would have variants throughout, because somewhere down the line the het genes would come through. Like I said before, I'm a breeder, not a taxonomist, but MY point is, don't be in a hurry to stamp anything that hasn't been proven 100%. It won't hurt a bit to be cautious, and keep species like this seperate for now.

Kelly, thank you for taking the time to give your expertise as a tarantula breeder. As you know I have been involve with tarantulas for many years. I started with a rose hair in the late and a few others in the late 80's. I moved up to the ladder once I knew of Bryant Capiz (Arachnocentric) and met him in person, after that the rest is history. I wonder what his thoughts would be if he was still around on how fast this hobby has grown.

---------- Post added 09-18-2015 at 04:46 PM ----------

and I do understand that. I was wrong for doing it I will say. Its good that the sac was not viable, but from a breeders POV I had two of said species that I purchased with names that I had no reason to question. The fact is I am no expert, and whatever the outcome is it doesnt matter because the mother is dead and the slings are not going as hoped. I still do not agree that my species was brock but thats neither here nor there, I think the point of this whole situation is that this is a community hobby, if someone has a belief that I may be doing something wrong I will take that into consideration, after all its everyone else it affects. So Jose Im sorry for giving you a hard time, your opinions were true and were only to protect the hobby. Every species that I decide to breed in the future will hit the ID section just for further confirmation. It cant hurt and even if I may have the wrong species we have an amazing community to help get the right ones.

Apology accepted, let's move forward and learn from the discussion of this thread. Take care..............

---------- Post added 09-18-2015 at 04:53 PM ----------

Here is a recently molted adult female Acanthoscurria geniculata. She molted yesterday, this photo and specimen is own by my friend Travis Jenkins. As you can see on why the common name "Giant White Knee" fits this species ".

Photo courtesy Travis Jenkins

And this second photo are two adult females of the Acanrhoscurria geniculata and Acanthoscurria sp. "Giant White Banded".

Photo courtesy Travis Jenkins