legality?

mindlessvw

Arachnobaron
Old Timer
Joined
Mar 6, 2006
Messages
528
I just noticed something in another thread and was curious about it...are millipedes illegal now or something? Maybe I have been a bit too much out of the loop! any help?
 

FOOTBALL FAN

Arachnosquire
Old Timer
Joined
Oct 24, 2006
Messages
108
I wouldnt of thought so they definately are not here in England but I cant see a reason why they would there not dangerous or endangered or most sp arent there may be some that are endangered
 

arachnocat

Arachnoangel
Old Timer
Joined
Nov 27, 2005
Messages
792
I heard that too. I think they are illegal to import maybe. Petco near my house still sells the giant African millipedes. I wouldn't be suprised if they become illegal though since they are foreign and they eat plants.
I'm thankful T's and scorps are still legal (for now anyway :rolleyes: )
 

Vanilla

Arachnosquire
Old Timer
Joined
Oct 13, 2006
Messages
127
I never heard that! I hope they don't become illegal here! I would like more in the future!
 

mindlessvw

Arachnobaron
Old Timer
Joined
Mar 6, 2006
Messages
528
just curious...i guess if this many people never heard of it most likely its not a big deal yet or its specific to a particular one...don't wanna harbor any illegal millis!!!:}
 

Vanilla

Arachnosquire
Old Timer
Joined
Oct 13, 2006
Messages
127
LOL...right after reading this thread,I read online that African giant millipedes are actually being sold illegally here in Canada.So I guess it's true.However obviously it isn't a big deal to the government or it would be stopped.
 

mindlessvw

Arachnobaron
Old Timer
Joined
Mar 6, 2006
Messages
528
well there you have it...i am harboring illegal veggie eating creatures....if ya'll don't hear from me for a while call the local precinct and start a fund to bail me out!!! Just kidding...i had heard something in another thread about not saying where you got them from because of this so I guess we need to be a bit on the careful side...but really what cop is not only gonna know but bust you for them...i guess its just customs to worry about now
 

Code Monkey

Arachnoemperor
Old Timer
Joined
Jul 22, 2002
Messages
3,786
but really what cop is not only gonna know but bust you for them...i guess its just customs to worry about now
Um, the USDA regulators who regularly read exotic pet boards to find people dealing in verboten species?

People posting things like Phasmids for sale have had their homes raided by the USDA and animals confiscated.

And, yes, while there's been no uniformity to the enforcement, AGBs have been confiscated in such raids. Any animal that is classified as either a plant eater or a predator of honeybees falls under their regulation (this is why exotic mantids are currently not being sold openly by most dealer because they made an issue of them last year).
 

Zarathustra

Arachnosquire
Old Timer
Joined
Aug 20, 2006
Messages
106
Um, the USDA regulators who regularly read exotic pet boards to find people dealing in verboten species?

People posting things like Phasmids for sale have had their homes raided by the USDA and animals confiscated.

And, yes, while there's been no uniformity to the enforcement, AGBs have been confiscated in such raids. Any animal that is classified as either a plant eater or a predator of honeybees falls under their regulation (this is why exotic mantids are currently not being sold openly by most dealer because they made an issue of them last year).
When you say "raided" do you mean they kicked down the door with a search warrant, or they knocked and asked to come in without a search warrant?
 

Code Monkey

Arachnoemperor
Old Timer
Joined
Jul 22, 2002
Messages
3,786
When you say "raided" do you mean they kicked down the door with a search warrant, or they knocked and asked to come in without a search warrant?
The choice you neglected, came in with warrant politely; that's how most warrants are served minus the occasional violent individual where it's warranted and the hundreds of thousands of peaceful drug offenders where it is never justified.
 

Zarathustra

Arachnosquire
Old Timer
Joined
Aug 20, 2006
Messages
106
The choice you neglected, came in with warrant politely; that's how most warrants are served minus the occasional violent individual where it's warranted and the hundreds of thousands of peaceful drug offenders where it is never justified.
Well, I wouldn’t call it politely. If people come to your house with a search warrant, the warrant is backed with the threat of force.(guns) Insects and drug use are poor excuses to exercise force on someone, in my opinion.

Thank you for your time and response. I appreciate it.:)
 

Code Monkey

Arachnoemperor
Old Timer
Joined
Jul 22, 2002
Messages
3,786
Well, I wouldn’t call it politely. If people come to your house with a search warrant, the warrant is backed with the threat of force.(guns) Insects and drug use are poor excuses to exercise force on someone, in my opinion.

Thank you for your time and response. I appreciate it.:)
Any time they don't take a battering ram to my door and put a gun to the back of my daughter's head, I'll call that polite when dealing with our messed up culture ;)
 

Wade

Arachnoking
Old Timer
Joined
Aug 16, 2002
Messages
2,933
Millipedes are apparently being siezed, or else the USDA has simply stated that they are going to. My local (independant) pet shop tells me they've dissapeared from the wholesle lists. However, PetCo, for some reason, still seems to have them.

The justification the USDA gives for blocking millipedes (and mantids, BTW) is that they are afraid of the mites that might come in on imports. I also assumed that the reasoning was the broad "plant pest" definition. A friend of mine who works for a museum that has USDA APHIS permits informs me that the reason for blocking them is that a particular mite that is a known pest of flower bulbs has been found on imported A. gigas. Why we have to get that second hand and why the USDA is apparently unwilling to actually give reasons for their actions to the hobby at large is beyond me. You can't even get a straight answer if you try to contact them about a particular species, they tell you to apply for the permit (which few people qualify for).

Wade
 

gunslinger

Arachnobaron
Old Timer
Joined
Dec 6, 2006
Messages
356
It is hard to get a straight answer on this anywhere. My real question is how come the mega stores still carry them....ie Petco Petsmart Petland, and yet the USDA cracks down on every day joe?

IMO you would think they would be the "high profile" type targeted first. None of it makes sense to me.

How can it be illegal to import and sell a millipede, and yet I see websites sellling Nile Crocodiles, Cobras, Mambas, according to the site "legally"? I mean millipede vs. Cobra? Which would you be more worried about in your backyard?

And I cant find a good source for the millis I want, even though there are most likely established populations in south FLorida as invasives already!!
 

FOOTBALL FAN

Arachnosquire
Old Timer
Joined
Oct 24, 2006
Messages
108
Millipedes are apparently being siezed, or else the USDA has simply stated that they are going to. My local (independant) pet shop tells me they've dissapeared from the wholesle lists. However, PetCo, for some reason, still seems to have them.

The justification the USDA gives for blocking millipedes (and mantids, BTW) is that they are afraid of the mites that might come in on imports. I also assumed that the reasoning was the broad "plant pest" definition. A friend of mine who works for a museum that has USDA APHIS permits informs me that the reason for blocking them is that a particular mite that is a known pest of flower bulbs has been found on imported A. gigas. Why we have to get that second hand and why the USDA is apparently unwilling to actually give reasons for their actions to the hobby at large is beyond me. You can't even get a straight answer if you try to contact them about a particular species, they tell you to apply for the permit (which few people qualify for).

Wade

what about captive bred inverts???
 

Crono

Arachnobaron
Old Timer
Joined
Feb 18, 2006
Messages
530
It is hard to get a straight answer on this anywhere. My real question is how come the mega stores still carry them....ie Petco Petsmart Petland, and yet the USDA cracks down on every day joe?

IMO you would think they would be the "high profile" type targeted first. None of it makes sense to me.

How can it be illegal to import and sell a millipede, and yet I see websites sellling Nile Crocodiles, Cobras, Mambas, according to the site "legally"? I mean millipede vs. Cobra? Which would you be more worried about in your backyard?

And I cant find a good source for the millis I want, even though there are most likely established populations in south FLorida as invasives already!!
What chance do Nile crocodiles or cobras have of seriously disrupting the ecosystem, or becoming established? (Outside of Florida, which is a bit of a basketcase now) A cobra in your yard is a cobra in your yard, an invert in your yard likely means there are a lot more.

A loose nile crocodile should be easy to trace and cause minimal damage, a new species of invertebrate would not be so easy to control. Inverts are small, are relatively mobile (whether through wings or "hitch-hiking" with us), reproduce in amazing numbers and can have multiple generations per year
Just look up zebra mussels, or Emerald Ash Borer. One screw-up is all it takes for a repeat of something like dutch elm disease.

You guys have it easy, we aren't even allowed roaches for feeders up here. Most of us are lucky that scorpions and tarantulas are not considered a threat.
I don't necessarily agree with the blanket bans, but I understand the logic behind them.
 

gunslinger

Arachnobaron
Old Timer
Joined
Dec 6, 2006
Messages
356
Crono you seem to have missed my point.

A nile crocodile, a venemous snake, can kill a HUMAN, a millipede can destroy a plant, maybe. Except they eat dead matter not living plants that I know of? And for them to be a threat to anything many more than 1 would have to be released, where as just 1 dangerous reptile can be a threat to people.

The laws are not about protecting people but protecting big business.

Now Im not saying that Zebra Mussels, invasive Gobys, buckthorn, etc etc are not dangerous to an ecosystem when they invade and take hold. I understand the potential for problems. Its just that to me sometimes the laws are not here to protect us.

I mean name me states in the US where any tropical millipede from Indonesia, Madagascar, etc could become established and viable given our climate? Florida is about the only place in the US where any of the large tropical millis would have even a shot at survival. If I let any tropical giant pede go it would die outside. It might live through May - Sept but it would die. And these creatures are so slow in growing, how long before a breeding population could realistically grow in the wild? You said inverts are small and reproduce fast....... most of the pet trade Millipedes are NOT small at all. 6 inches to a foot long as imported adults. That is why people want them. And again , they are not fast reproducing as you state. It can take 5 years or longer for some spp of millipedes to reach sexual maturity.

These are not highly adaptive, hardy spp like Buckthorn, or Zebra Mussel. These are spp that need a highly specific climate and ecosystem to survive in. Anyhow, I dont have any problem with venemous snakes, reptiles in the trade etc.....I was really only making a point.....
 

edesign

AB FB Group Moderatr
Old Timer
Joined
Apr 23, 2004
Messages
2,110
it's not that they're illegal in the US all of a sudden...the regulations have been on the books for years, it's just that the USDA has only recently started to enforce it with respect to millis, phasmids, and mantids.

Use Arachnoboards' forum's advanced option in the search engine...highlight the "Myriapod" forum...and type in the word "illegal". A couple of highly relevant and educational threads will come up. For those of us interested in these creatures they warrant a read...even if it does eat up 10 minutes of your precious time :)

Chances are you won't get raided, but I really don't see the reason to say anything in public to make you a target if someone from the USDA were to be perusing the boards and gathering information (IP address' anyone?). If you want to increase your odds of losing your "pet" and hard earned money because you couldn't keep your mouth shut or didn't speak vaguely enough that's a personal problem...but also adds ammo to the USDA seeing these things as threats because of individuals keeping them without permits. They fail to understand that people have been keeping these things for many years and has not presented a problem as of yet.

As for why chain stores are still selling them and not being raided...it's probably because the USDA isn't aware of it (believe it or not) or just doesn't have the resources in the area to take action. Give it time, eventually they'll stop selling them...local pet store here used to have them, I haven't seen any on their shelves in well over 8 months but i have not inquired as to why. SO...if you want to buy some locally and they are available you should probably get them while the getting is good.

As for me...IF i were to ever keep any of these types of critters, any time I had a question about their care I would not ever say I currently own them. I would pose it as a hypothetical question since it is not illegal to learn about their care. The USDA probably doesn't have the resources to check out everyone who inquires about AGB care or mantids, but if they can narrow it down to people who post, "Hi, I just acquired 3 AGB's and some orchid mantids...check out the pictures! Does anyone know how easy they are to breed since I may be interested in selling some down the line."...you can bet they'll be put on the "special" list to look in to further ;)
 

Crono

Arachnobaron
Old Timer
Joined
Feb 18, 2006
Messages
530
Crono you seem to have missed my point.

A nile crocodile, a venemous snake, can kill a HUMAN, a millipede can destroy a plant, maybe. Except they eat dead matter not living plants that I know of? And for them to be a threat to anything many more than 1 would have to be released, where as just 1 dangerous reptile can be a threat to people.

The laws are not about protecting people but protecting big business.

Now Im not saying that Zebra Mussels, invasive Gobys, buckthorn, etc etc are not dangerous to an ecosystem when they invade and take hold. I understand the potential for problems. Its just that to me sometimes the laws are not here to protect us.

I mean name me states in the US where any tropical millipede from Indonesia, Madagascar, etc could become established and viable given our climate? Florida is about the only place in the US where any of the large tropical millis would have even a shot at survival. If I let any tropical giant pede go it would die outside. It might live through May - Sept but it would die. And these creatures are so slow in growing, how long before a breeding population could realistically grow in the wild? You said inverts are small and reproduce fast....... most of the pet trade Millipedes are NOT small at all. 6 inches to a foot long as imported adults. That is why people want them. And again , they are not fast reproducing as you state. It can take 5 years or longer for some spp of millipedes to reach sexual maturity.

These are not highly adaptive, hardy spp like Buckthorn, or Zebra Mussel. These are spp that need a highly specific climate and ecosystem to survive in. Anyhow, I dont have any problem with venemous snakes, reptiles in the trade etc.....I was really only making a point.....
I agree that a millipede is not going to be a threat here when it is 0F and snow covered outside my window, but that doesn't influence the law. I do not agree with the fact many species which pose no threat are kept out, but I can understand the logic.

How does the custom officer at the airport or the USDA officer know the difference between every species, and thier native habitat and ecology? I am sure that 99% of the people that enforce these bans probably do not know these details.

Unfortunately, when it comes down to it, it's easier (not to mention cheaper) to enforce "Nothing is allowed with the following exceptions..." than "Everything is permitted, except the following..."

Hopefully things can change eventually. I know keeping of Millipedes, Mantis, Phasmids and Scarabs would explode if laws were loosened. Lets hope they do.:)
 
Top