LAG's - too short?

[SonsofArachne]

called Live arrival guarantee. That means it arrives alive

Wow, didn't know that. I guess it's impossible to talk about changing that then

I don't negotiate with terrorist.

Because being ridiculously fat doesnt necessarily have to mean premolt.

Dosen't mean it wasn't pre-molt either. I've seen dozens of pre-molt T's, and not every one shows all the classic signs. But if it was pre-molt or just horribly overfed (unlikely) is not relevant to the discussion. I'm actually a little surprised so many are okay with the status quo. I've always found the idea of "as long as it shows up alive, I'm off the hook" rather odd. I mean, is a 24 hr. grace period really that much to ask?

 

[AmbushArachnids]

Wow, didn't know that. I guess it's impossible to talk about changing that then

Now you are correct and we are both in agreement. You are responsible and understand how a contract works now.

 

[Chris LXXIX]

The funny thing is that here in Europe basically this 'live arrival' etc fear is almost a non existent issue. Yes, obviously you can anyway settle/arrange things with the seller, if something goes wrong, but we have and had less 'DOA' than in the U.S and notably with something like a one week (one week) shippings - like from Poland to Greece etc.

Live arrival is good enough, you folks are over concerned. Besides, if the carrier/s play Basketball with the parcel/s...

 

[Kitara]

And are you telling me if you took a T home from a store and it dropped dead you wouldn't take it back?

We bought an unsexed b. albo from a store about 3 months ago. It molted about a month ago and we found out it was a male. Then it made a sperm web. I told my husband yesterday that we have a mature male. His first response, "well can't you take it back?!" Um... that would be a no.

 

[MetalMan2004]

What am I missing here? Even if it was in pre-molt when shipped only one of two things can happen:

1. It molts in transit and dies and the LAG covers you.

2. It doesn’t molt in transit and is fine when it arrives and molts later.

On the rare situation that a T molts in transit and makes it alive, then it made it alive and should be fine. I’d contact the seller to let them know what happened and usually they’ll work with you if it dies after a few days. I don’t see the need to tag a bunch of what-ifs onto the LAG though. Any decent seller will work with you in a crazy situation like that.

Maybe because sellers do stupid things too, like shipping T's that are close to molting, or shipping without cool / hot packs on hot / cold days. Besides you'd have to be the worst keeper in the world to kill a healthy T within 24 hrs. And the sellers could make a longer LAG conditional - as in asking the buyer about their husbandry before a issuing a refund. Also some sellers do offer 24 hr or more LAG's, so if some can why not all?

Then you’re buying from the wrong people. Did you ask for an ice pack?

Have you checked out the facebook tarantula groups lately? LOTS of idiot keepers out there. TONS OF THEM. I wouldn’t expect any seller to open themselves up to guaranteeing keepers are keeping their new tarantula correctly.

No, I expect live arrival of a healthy animal that is in a condition to be shipped (not in heavy pre-molt) and shipped appropriately for weather conditions, or at least a heads up that they don't include hot /cold packs. Also, peoples lives don't necessarily fit into a shippers schedule. For instance I work 12 hr. days, so if a seller insists on shipping on their schedule (many do) and it arrives on a work day, I barely have time to pick it up and house it, certainly not watch it to see if there's a problem.

I certainly don't mean this as a attack on all sellers - most do a fine job packing and shipping healthy animals. And these sellers should have no problem with a 24 hr. LAG. As far as buyers killings healthy T's in 24 hrs, I don't see it happening unless the buyer is a complete idiot, and a few well worded questions would tell you if they did anything that would void the LAG.



Easy. You're responsible for getting it home from the store. A online seller is responsible for getting it to you in good condition. And are you telling me if you took a T home from a store and it dropped dead you wouldn't take it back? Because that would clearly be something they did wrong, not you.

I’ve never bought from a seller that wouldn’t be reasonably flexible with shipping day, whether it be hobbyists or big box websites. You can’t expect them to bend over backwards to work themselves into your schedule. Figure out a the easiest day for you and have it held for pickup. If it simply doesn’t fit in your schedule wait to order until it does or communicate to the seller that you want to buy it but have them hold it for a bit. You can’t blame the seller for your schedule.

You’ll notice that the places that have longer live guarantees are regularly more expensive than those that don’t. Even though it isn’t a line item, you’re basically paying for an insurance policy that covers a longer guarantee. If seller A charges $30 for a spider with no extra guarantees and seller B charger $33, seller B uses that extra $3 per spider to pay for the 1 in 10 spiders that doesn’t make it that extra 24 hours.

If you want that insurance then buy from those that offer it. Just know its going to cost a bit more for that service.

 

[SonsofArachne]

Now you are correct and we are both in agreement. You are responsible and understand how a contract works now.

And you are deliberately missing my point. Just because something is done that way now doesn't mean it can't change.

I've noticed while most of the comments are against my position (and in some cases me) the poll is actually pretty close, four people even calling for longer LAGs than me. Most likely people are seeing the tone of some of the comments. I hoped for a serious discussion, instead it was implied that this was my fault(?) and I don't know how pre-molt works (lol, I've seen as many or more molts than a lot of you people have, so don't act like I'm some newb). And why exactly am I just supposed to take the loss and be okay with it when clearly it wasn't my fault - none of you would.

 

[mack1855]

And you are deliberately missing my point.

Oh,you were being sarcastic..
Even I picked up on that.

Live arrival is fine with me.If I receive the animal,and it is alive,then
its my reponsibilty from then on.And @MetalMan2004 made a good point.

I've noticed while most of the comments are against my position (and in some cases me) the poll is actually pretty close

And which post was that?.I thought you started a post that was reasonable,and the discussion
was civil.

 

[SonsofArachne]

And which post was that?.I thought you started a post that was reasonable,and the discussion
was civil.

Maybe I'm being a bit sensitive (losing a considerable amount of money will do that) but while I thought I made pretty good case, some commenters seem to be implying it's my fault. Like I told the sellers to ship without cold packs or while in pre-molt. Sellers make mistakes too - and they should be the ones to pay for those mistakes - period.

 

[RezonantVoid]

I agree on a 24 hour grace period. I've had one DOA before and if the poor thing was packed acceptably then I'd be fine with the general LAG policy, but they were basically asking to lose profits over dead T's with their shipping methods. I made a quite abrupt (and what could probably have been handled better) reply email and they were willing to replace it, but even the follow up T was packed almost as horrendously, and had been so cramped it literally had cracked and bleeding leg joints. After a ton of drinking she actually settled in and recovered but I was super stressed for a few days during that process. When you've spent the equivalent of over $100 USD on a large adult T, I expect it to not be sent with the absolute minimum standards that'll make sure it just makes it to the buyers house alive so the seller can save a few dollars on care standards.

 

[Mini8leggedfreak]

I thiiiiiink tarcan has a week long guarantee? As far as I can recall I haven't lost a T sling from them yet, touch wood. I think a month is ridiculously too long though. I've had electronics with shorter warrantees.

They do offer one week. Personally I think a week is good because I think if the T is in bad shape then it would likely pass away in a week but on the other hand a bad keeper can easily kill a T in a week.
A good relationship goes a long way. By that I mean if you regularly buy from one dealer and have time to get to know them, and them you. Then they will quite possibly help you out. I have had a dealer help me out months after I had a T die that was just outside of the LAG, because I had dealt with him a lot.

 

[ccTroi]

if you’re still butt hurt, then take your business elsewhere. simple.

 

[SonsofArachne]

if you’re still butt hurt, then take your business elsewhere. simple.

If you ever sell anything, I'll remember not to buy from you

 

[Vanessa]

I thiiiiiink tarcan has a week long guarantee? As far as I can recall I haven't lost a T sling from them yet, touch wood. I think a month is ridiculously too long though. I've had electronics with shorter warrantees.

Tarantula Canada has a week long guarantee and I think that is absolutely reasonable. Short of purposely crushing/stepping on/squashing your tarantula - there is almost no way that you are going to kill them within a week of having them... even with the worst setup. Tarantula's take longer than that to die from starvation/dehydration and even falling injuries are going to take longer than that.
However, short of visiting the dealer and guaranteeing that the conditions that they are being kept in are ideal - guaranteeing that every single one of the thousands of spiderlings that they have never miss a feeding or watering, and that they have been around long enough after importing from overseas to ensure that every single one is in ideal condition from the exporter - you have no way of knowing if something prior to shipping would have contributed to their death. Also, if the dealers take their animals to shows on a regular basis, the traveling back and forth also has to be factored in.
Not being able to verify care applies to both the sender and receiver.
A week is definitely reasonable.

 

[FrDoc]

I opine LAG is akin to the vast majority of insurance; smoke and mirrors. It makes folks feel warm and fuzzy to know it’s there, but in the end it still bites if your new spood arrives dead. Yeah, maybe it’s replaced, but you’re still forking out another 40ish bucks for shipping. I pay no mind to LAG. If I want a spider, I buy it regardless. It’s like overnight shipping, I actually look for dealers who offer priority. I’ve never had a DOA and one of my purchases was jammed up due to circumstances for a week, and it came running out of that container. It sounds very noble to say, “because we care soooooo much about our animals we only offer overnight shipping for $45.00...”. Well, you just lost me as a customer, but because folks love the warm and fuzzies, they will still pay. Slings seem to be happy as little eight-legged clams all cozied up in their little shipping vials, and most don’t even want to come out. What I save by choosing sellers who offer $10-20 priority shipping, I’ll throw them another $30-50 for a few more slings.

 

[SonsofArachne]

I opine LAG is akin to the vast majority of insurance; smoke and mirrors. It makes folks feel warm and fuzzy to know it’s there, but in the end it still bites if your new spood arrives dead. Yeah, maybe it’s replaced, but you’re still forking out another 40ish bucks for shipping. I pay no mind to LAG. If I want a spider, I buy it regardless. It’s like overnight shipping, I actually look for dealers who offer priority. I’ve never had a DOA and one of my purchases was jammed up due to circumstances for a week, and it came running out of that container. It sounds very noble to say, “because we care soooooo much about our animals we only offer overnight shipping for $45.00...”. Well, you just lost me as a customer, but because folks love the warm and fuzzies, they will still pay. Slings seem to be happy as little eight-legged clams all cozied up in their little shipping vials, and most don’t even want to come out. What I save by choosing sellers who offer $10-20 priority shipping, I’ll throw them another $30-50 for a few more slings.

This is all good - until a seller does to you what they did to me, then you have zero recourse. As far as you never having a DOA, well with your luck you should be playing the lottery. I went a long time without having any DOA's - then I did.

 

[mack1855]

Not being able to verify care applies to both the sender and receiver.
A week is definitely reasonable.

And this is why you look at reviews for the seller.If I order a $100 sling from Joe Blows big spiders,
I cant expect customer service.He/She will tell me,did the animal come in alive?.I say yes,but it died
a week later.
Joe Blows big spiders will say,so send me evidence that you rehoused that animal in an appropriate enclosure,
and send me evidence that you did not stop[ at the grocery store,for 50 minutes with the temps in the 90,s,
and that you provided water upon arrival,and after rehousing.And send me proof that you did not throw a
cricket in as the T was molting.
A $100 sling,im making sure I know who im dealing with!.
Heck,lets do two weeks,three weeks.
If,IMO,i get a T,that comes out of the shipping vial/container with attitude,and I house it correctly
then I cannot in good faith come back to the seller,and complain.
We are dealing with live animals,not toasters or auto parts.So, know who you are dealing with.

 

[FrDoc]

This is all good - until a seller does to you what they did to me, then you have zero recourse. As far as you never having a DOA, well with your luck you should be playing the lottery. I went a long time without having any DOA's - then I did.

I actually think your lottery remark is quite apropos. As @mack1855 posted, we’re discussing the purchase and transit of live animals, and that’s a crap shoot. You pays your money and you takes your chances, sometimes you win, and some times you lose. Fortunately in this game you usually win.

 

[Liquifin]

LAG as a subject is way too broad for me. Anything can happen between the process of the seller owning, selling, or packing a T. and the buyer receiving the T. Everyone's case of "something going wrong" ranges and changes from situations, times, and places. Which can happen after the void 24 (or whatever time) LAG time frame.

A seller can sell a healthy specimen or a sick one, a buyer can accidentally screw up care or accidents can happen during un-boxing. Who knows? Maybe a seller has poor care of inverts because of number of inventory he/she has to deal with. Or maybe a buyer is over-protective on care for a spider leading to a death in the long run. Or maybe the shipping company had a bad day or a terrible worker causing internal damage on the T. during shipment in the long-run. Look, all I'm just saying is that this thread seems like it wants to point finger at something if a T. goes down south, but there is too much that can factor or happen that can cause things to go south later voiding LAG time frame. Everyone views LAG as similar, but different things sometimes. Some people call it warranty others call it insurance. But LAG time frame of a T. is something that is too broad as a subject alone. Honestly, anything could've happen to point fingers on a dead T. am I right?

 

[mack1855]

am I right?

Yep.Warranty,s are for washers/dryers.Insurance is for your car//home.
Live animals,no.
Again,its live arrival,not live arrival,and then for three more weeks it stays alive.
@SonsofArachne ,I think we got your frustration,but unlikely to change.
Good thread.Something to thnk about,for sure.

 

[SonsofArachne]

Yep.Warranty,s are for washers/dryers.Insurance is for your car//home.
Live animals,no.

So why offer LAG at all if that's the case? I still think 24 hrs is more than reasonable. If you can't give your customers 24 hrs, well you must not have much confidence in your ability to ship correctly, or your T's health, or both.