Isopod or baby N. americanus (I'm such a newb)

mickiem

Arachnoprince
Joined
Jul 23, 2016
Messages
1,542
I'm pretty sure these are isopods but I would feel better if some of you also think that! I bought 10 mature, WC N. americanus and I didn't purposely include isopods. I have only had them a short time, but saw eggs a few weeks ago. Should I have any concern with them in with these Cherry Foots? Is there a photo with grain mites, springtails, isopods, commensal mites, etc. shown together for comparison? That would be a great resource for newbies like me... This photo is of his underbody. I am thinking the arrangement of the legs says isopod. Also, I looked online at some pedelings and it seems their head is more segmented. isopodi think.JPG
 

Aquarimax

Arachnoprince
Joined
Mar 1, 2014
Messages
1,059
I've bred both bumblebee millipedes and flameleg millipedes, and what you have there looks like an isopod to me. Very young millipedes tend to be shaped something like the letter "C" and are more elongated. The pic looks a lot like a Trichorhina tomentosa to me, a common isopod in culture for use as food/vivarium janitor.

I know some people keep isopods with millipedes, but I have chosen not to do so as some people have had bad experiences with isopods attacking newly molted millipedes.
 

ErinM31

Arachnogoddess
Joined
Feb 25, 2016
Messages
1,166
I'm pretty sure these are isopods but I would feel better if some of you also think that! I bought 10 mature, WC N. americanus and I didn't purposely include isopods. I have only had them a short time, but saw eggs a few weeks ago. Should I have any concern with them in with these Cherry Foots? Is there a photo with grain mites, springtails, isopods, commensal mites, etc. shown together for comparison? That would be a great resource for newbies like me... This photo is of his underbody. I am thinking the arrangement of the legs says isopod. Also, I looked online at some pedelings and it seems their head is more segmented. View attachment 218061
Definitely an isopod. To see what Narceus americanus pedelings look like, check out my thread a few pages back entitled Spirobolida pedelings!
As for seeing what the rest look like, I would do a search on BugGuide.net It is difficult enough for my iPhone to photograph pedelings and isopods -- forget about springtails and mites! But you will not mistake mites for anything else -- they are moving specks, lol. Springtails can look like tiny pedelings but springtails move faster and can jump.
 

ErinM31

Arachnogoddess
Joined
Feb 25, 2016
Messages
1,166
Very young (2nd instar?) N. americanus pedelings:
image.jpeg

1st instar Tylobolus Pedeling:
image.jpeg

N. americanus pedelings after another molt or two:
image.jpeg

They are even bigger now -- I need to take another photo of my babies! :happy:
 

mickiem

Arachnoprince
Joined
Jul 23, 2016
Messages
1,542
As for seeing what the rest look like, I would do a search on BugGuide.net It is difficult enough for my iPhone to photograph pedelings and isopods -- forget about springtails and mites! But you will not mistake mites for anything else -- they are moving specks, lol. Springtails can look like tiny pedelings but springtails move faster and can jump.[/QUOTE]

My El Gordos have commensal mites. They are about the same size as I remember on AGBs (my current AGBs don't have mites). They are larger than grain mites, correct? I noticed these isopods moved pretty quickly; pedelings move slow, correct?

My questions will slow down some day, but in the meantime - thanks for the help!
 

ErinM31

Arachnogoddess
Joined
Feb 25, 2016
Messages
1,166
My El Gordos have commensal mites. They are about the same size as I remember on AGBs (my current AGBs don't have mites). They are larger than grain mites, correct? I noticed these isopods moved pretty quickly; pedelings move slow, correct?
I never investigated the different types of mites and regard all I find as undesirable. I tried to get rid of those I found on my Narceus gordanus too.

Isopods, including their young -- mancae -- move faster than pedelings when disturbed, yes.

My questions will slow down some day, but in the meantime - thanks for the help!
Aha, no, there is always more to learn, new challenges, new species, etc. ;) I'm certainly still asking questions! :D And I am always glad to help when I can! :happy:
 

ErinM31

Arachnogoddess
Joined
Feb 25, 2016
Messages
1,166
ErinM31 - do you keep isopods with your breeding pedes?
No, I don't keep isopods with ANY of my millipedes. I don't intentionally keep anything with my millipedes any longer. I have heard too many reports of them attacking molting millipedes and have seen firsthand how much they enjoy protein.
 

ErinM31

Arachnogoddess
Joined
Feb 25, 2016
Messages
1,166
Totally awesome! Thanks for sharing. Drooling here!
My pleasure! :happy: It is always a joy for me to discover new pedelings, mancae, spiderlings or roach nymphs -- especially when it's my first time for a species! :D

There is decayed/rotted wood with your N. americanus, correct? If I remember correctly, they need it to make their egg casings. If I remember wrong, it's good nutrition anyway! ;)
 

mickiem

Arachnoprince
Joined
Jul 23, 2016
Messages
1,542
My pleasure! :happy: It is always a joy for me to discover new pedelings, mancae, spiderlings or roach nymphs -- especially when it's my first time for a species! :D

There is decayed/rotted wood with your N. americanus, correct? If I remember correctly, they need it to make their egg casings. If I remember wrong, it's good nutrition anyway! ;)
Thanks - yes, lots of rotted wood. Have you ever had your millipeds be cannibalistic? I found a headless Ivory. That box has lots of wood and I supplement with fruit, veggies and dog food. The box is 24X16 with 8" substrate. There are about 20 juvenile to adults; mostly female. What gives?!
 

ErinM31

Arachnogoddess
Joined
Feb 25, 2016
Messages
1,166
Thanks - yes, lots of rotted wood. Have you ever had your millipeds be cannibalistic? I found a headless Ivory. That box has lots of wood and I supplement with fruit, veggies and dog food. The box is 24X16 with 8" substrate. There are about 20 juvenile to adults; mostly female. What gives?!
Some Spirostreptids will nibble on one another's legs if their diet isn't supplemented with protein, but I have never seen this behavior among my Spirobolids and really don't think they could be responsible for decapitation! What else is in the tank? Most likely, the Ivory died for unknown reasons (they are more sensitive in my experience) and perhaps some isopods were munching on it? Isopods will eat their dead but I have not seen evidence of any of my millipedes doing so. There are some nasty predators/parasites that attack millipedes from the head (to avoid the repugnatorial glands) -- hopefully you've none of those! :eek:
 

mickiem

Arachnoprince
Joined
Jul 23, 2016
Messages
1,542
Some Spirostreptids will nibble on one another's legs if their diet isn't supplemented with protein, but I have never seen this behavior among my Spirobolids and really don't think they could be responsible for decapitation! What else is in the tank? Most likely, the Ivory died for unknown reasons (they are more sensitive in my experience) and perhaps some isopods were munching on it? Isopods will eat their dead but I have not seen evidence of any of my millipedes doing so. There are some nasty predators/parasites that attack millipedes from the head (to avoid the repugnatorial glands) -- hopefully you've none of those! :eek:
Oh no! Something else to keep me up nights. What kind of parasites might do that? I have a 20X magnifying glass and I search the substrate (surface) every few days. I see springtails and that's all in that box. I haven't introduced anything from outside without sterilizing it. These are WC and I put the little bit of substrate they came with in their new home. They have substrate from Peter mixed with coir. Maybe I have a crazy pede? There is one large female that is overly active. Sigh. Nightmare in Cincinnati.... :(
 

ErinM31

Arachnogoddess
Joined
Feb 25, 2016
Messages
1,166
Oh no! Something else to keep me up nights. What kind of parasites might do that? I have a 20X magnifying glass and I search the substrate (surface) every few days. I see springtails and that's all in that box. I haven't introduced anything from outside without sterilizing it. These are WC and I put the little bit of substrate they came with in their new home. They have substrate from Peter mixed with coir. Maybe I have a crazy pede? There is one large female that is overly active. Sigh. Nightmare in Cincinnati.... :(
Sorry to alarm you! Nasty things like "glowworms" aren't something you wouldn't see and since you've made sure to kill pests before adding anything from outside to the box, I would not worry about it. Those are not the sort of pests that seem to appear out of nowhere (like mites). The only reasons I mentioned it are that insects that kill and eat millipedes will do so from the head and some people keep millipedes with local flora and if you'd introduced pieces of rotting wood without baking it first, it could be possible to introduce such a thing.

I think that you can relax and not have to be THAT vigilant unless it puts your mind at ease. I know I get upset when I lose a millipede too, especially when I do not know the reason or believe it to be do to a mistake on my part. :( Unfortunately, with all arthropods there can be bad molts and other cases of death without apparent cause, even with species that generally do well in captivity. I lost two out of five Question Mark cockroach nymphs while the other three have continued to do well and one in particular has outgrown the rest. How does this happen when they are the same species -- and even captive-bred in this case -- and all in the same environment??? There may be heterogeneity in the population -- if not genetically then epigenetically -- so that even as the environment varies with time, there is adaptive radiation and the fittest ensure the survival of the species. But that is tangential...

I was looking over my N. americanus pedelings and found one headless. Who knows why it died while its brothers and sisters continue to thrive and grow. I believe that in this situation, like yours, with growing young which tend to be the most enthusiastic eaters, one less fit died and the others scavenged what they could. Previously, I have not left any dead Spirobolids in an enclosure long enough to be eaten (and there were only a few other millipedes sharing the enclosure with them, not lots of growing young) and those millipedes which died and I found much later, decayed but not eaten, were Polydesmids and Platydesmids, which are generally more particular regarding what they eat.

In summary, do not worry, I do not think you have some nasty killer introduced or a crazy murderous millipede. If all of the millipedes in the enclosure are wandering about a lot, seeming to look for an escape, you would do well to check conditions and make sure that the substrate is neither dry nor waterlogged. If it is only one that seems agitated, it is possible that it is unwell (I had an Ivory that was dying of a molting injury behave this way, as if the poor thing were looking to escape its injury :( ) but since it is a large female, hopefully it is instead gravid and looking for a suitable place to lay its eggs. ;) One of my N. americanus females acted VERY agitated from when I first received her and secreted a lot at only gentle handling (some species regularly do this, sometimes even if you look at them wrong, lol, but N. americanus is not one of them). Sure enough, a month or so later, I had dozens of little pedelings! :happy:
 

mickiem

Arachnoprince
Joined
Jul 23, 2016
Messages
1,542
I think that you can relax and not have to be THAT vigilant unless it puts your mind at ease.

All of this is so new to me, I feel like I need to watch more closely. Just a learning process. I keep my magnifier closer than my shoes!

I know I get upset when I lose a millipede too, especially when I do not know the reason or believe it to be do to a mistake on my part. :( Unfortunately, with all arthropods there can be bad molts and other cases of death without apparent cause, even with species that generally do well in captivity. I lost two out of five Question Mark cockroach nymphs while the other three have continued to do well and one in particular has outgrown the rest. How does this happen when they are the same species -- and even captive-bred in this case -- and all in the same environment??? There may be heterogeneity in the population -- if not genetically then epigenetically -- so that even as the environment varies with time, there is adaptive radiation and the fittest ensure the survival of the species. But that is tangential...

Ha! That is how I think as well. I have a friend with three daughters; two have professional careers and the other one is in and out of prison. All raised with the same philosophies. Another family with 4 beautiful, healthy daughters - one was just diagnosed with lymphoma. On and on it goes. Doesn't fit logic. My sister is an RN and while I wouldn't touch a sick human - I will embrace any other living thing. (I love people; just don't want to touch sick ones...) I love diversity even when it confounds me.

In summary, do not worry, I do not think you have some nasty killer introduced or a crazy murderous millipede.

Although I am learning to trust you, I have my eye on that crazy pede!

If all of the millipedes in the enclosure are wandering about a lot, seeming to look for an escape, you would do well to check conditions and make sure that the substrate is neither dry nor waterlogged. If it is only one that seems agitated, it is possible that it is unwell (I had an Ivory that was dying of a molting injury behave this way, as if the poor thing were looking to escape its injury :( ) but since it is a large female, hopefully it is instead gravid and looking for a suitable place to lay its eggs. ;) One of my N. americanus females acted VERY agitated from when I first received her and secreted a lot at only gentle handling (some species regularly do this, sometimes even if you look at them wrong, lol, but N. americanus is not one of them). Sure enough, a month or so later, I had dozens of little pedelings! :happy:

Great food for thought! Fingers crossed for gravid! Thanks again.
 
Top