Is this millipede dying?

[Nicolepickford]

I ordered some vietnamese rainbow milipedes to add to one of my bioactive enclosures. 3 seemed great, this guy seems he's going to die. Seller says keep an eye incase he disturbed him whilst shedding? How would I know the difference?

The legs move when he's touched, the back end seems to be opening which doesn't look great but ?

Update: still alive, stood itself up somewhat?

 

[Sterls]

When did you order? How long has the millipede been in the enclosure exactly?

It sounds like the answer is recent. If so, the seller's idea of it being interrupted during a molt would be their fault, not yours. Generally any issue with a millipede immediately after purchase means the seller wasn't taking care of it. Many can suffer unknowingly (to the caretaker) for awhile before dying.

Were you concerned because it was motionless? They can go quite a while without moving much. Is it walking now or just right side up? They'll be sideways at times, if that was your concern.
Whatever you do, don't bother or fuss with it. Offer food and observe all of the specimens. If this one continues to concern you, update the post.

It'll either survive or it won't, nothing you can do at this point but have patience and watch. Since it seems to have righted itself in the update you just posted, I'm thinking you may have been worrying over nothing. Keep us updated though, hope you were just being a paranoid bugmom - happens to all of us.

 

[Nicolepickford]

Thank you for your reply, he was in shipping for less than 24 hours. He came out of the shipping tub like this. He hasn't walked at all, he was moving all of his legs when I placed him on the moss but not at all now that he's moved himself upright.
The other 3 seemed perfectly healthy, they've gone under the carpet moss In the enclosure so I can't check on them but they seemed perfectly active before digging down.

I'll keep an eye on him, and move him to his own tub if he hasn't moved at all when their roomate wakes up (a royal python, so I'm concerned he'll steamroller over the little dude if he can't move himself)

 

[Sterls]

What exactly are you keeping in this enclosure?

 

[Nicolepickford]

What exactly are you keeping in this enclosure?

The main inhabitant is a male royal python. Other than that there's a healthy colony of springtails, and some dwarf white isopods. The enclosure is relatively large (4.5ft across, 4ft high) with 10" of substrate (just so happened to be a good milipede sub mix)

 

[goliathusdavid]

Please do not tell me there is a royal python in that millipede enclosure. Please.

 

[Nicolepickford]

What exactly are you keeping in this enclosure?

The main inhabitant is a male royal python. Other than that there's a healthy colony of springtails, and some dwarf white isopods. The enclosure is relatively large (4.5ft across, 4ft high) with 10" of substrate (just so happened to be a good milipede sub mix)

Oh and just to clarify snakes don't eat insects! Wouldn't dream of putting large inverts in my bioactive lizard enclosures. The snake also rarely ventures to the ground but he does on occasion

Please do not tell me there is a royal python in that millipede enclosure. Please.

I can assure you that it's okay to do as part of a bioactive tank - however if it is that much of a concern I can get them in their own setup

I don't intend to have them cramped up and crawling over each other by any means - millipedes are fantastic soil aerators (and very cool!)

 

[goliathusdavid]

Please do not tell me there is a royal python in that millipede enclosure. Please.

The main inhabitant is a male royal python. Other than that there's a healthy colony of springtails, and some dwarf white isopods. The enclosure is relatively large (4.5ft across, 4ft high) with 10" of substrate (just so happened to be a good milipede sub mix)

Well, so much for that hope. If you care about the welfare of the millipedes please take them out of that enclosure ASAP. A royal python and Thai rainbow millipedes would NEVER co habitate under natural circumstances, and you cannot be assured how these species will interact in captivity especially in regards to stress which as Im sure you know can affect overall welfare. Just because it can be done doesn't mean it should.
It is not my intention to be rude about this. But in the interests of the welfare of all animals, please separate the millipedes.

 

[Nicolepickford]

Well, so much for that hope. If you care about the welfare of the millipedes please take them out of that enclosure ASAP. A royal python and Thai rainbow millipedes would NEVER co habitate under natural circumstances, and you cannot be assured how these species will interact in captivity especially in regards to stress which as Im sure you know can affect overall welfare. Just because it can be done doesn't mean it should.
It is not my intention to be rude about this. But in the interests of the welfare of all animals, please separate the millipedes.

I do understand your concerns. This is why I double and tripled checked with snake husbandry groups and BOTH invert vendors I found and was purchasing them from.

I will separate but this gives me a whole other issue.

How on earth do I find them

Luckily I do have spare enclosures but should I dig them up or wait for them to show themselves?

 

[goliathusdavid]

While it is normally never advisable to dig up, since these just arrived its incredibly unlikely that they're already molting. Therefore, I would dig in the interests of removing quickly.

 

[Nicolepickford]

While it is normally never advisable to dig up, since these just arrived its incredibly unlikely that they're already molting. Therefore, I would dig in the interests of removing quickly.

Okay I'll get hunting, their options are either a 34" x 18" wooden vivarium (sealed so can hold humidity) or a 18"x18" glass. I think I have a few plastic tubs I keep for feeder insects around too.

What do you think is best?

 

[goliathusdavid]

Honestly? I'd opt for the plastic tubs. Dimensions should be at least twice (I do three to four times) as long your longest specimen, width at least as long (I do twice or three times) and substrate as deep as the longest specimen. Keep in mind, I just listed minimum dimensions but even with maximum, the two other terrariums would be extremely large.

 

[Sterls]

Oh and just to clarify snakes don't eat insects! Wouldn't dream of putting large inverts in my bioactive lizard enclosures. The snake also rarely ventures to the ground but he does on occasion

It's not an issue with the snake eating the 'insects' (the term you're looking for is arthropods). The problem is that rainbow millipedes and royal/ball pythons have conflicting care needs.

I haven't kept rainbow millipedes, but to my knowledge they're from rainforests in thailand/vietnam, and require moist substrate at all times. Ball pythons are from scrub and grasslands in Africa. I've been keeping ball pythons for 15 years. It's not good for the pythons to have it damp all the time - you're risking a respiratory infection, among other issues. I had it happen years ago when I first started, because I was keeping them too humid. It would be a quite delicate balance to achieve the proper level of moisture for the millipedes while also providing adequate ventilation to keep it from getting too stuffy for the snake. Not saying it's impossible, but you're putting your animals at a greater risk than if you kept them separately according to their individual, optimal needs.

I have no issue with the surge of so-called "bioactive" setups, but they should aim to mimic reality - is that not the point? These two species aren't even from the same biome. Throwing rainforest animals in with grassland animals makes no sense besides "I thought it would be cool." It does not prioritize the animals' welfare. It may not be realistic in captivity to limit cohabitants to those which naturally occur, but they should at least be from similar environments.

Not trying to be a wet blanket, but that's my 2 cents. Do with it what you will.

 

[Nicolepickford]

Honestly? I'd opt for the plastic tubs. Dimensions should be at least twice (I do three to four times) as long your longest specimen, width at least as long (I do twice or three times) and substrate as deep as the longest specimen. Keep in mind, I just listed minimum dimensions but even with maximum, the two other terrariums would be extremely large.

Noted. Luckily for me they were just hanging out under the carpet moss. Looks like I have some more pets and need to back to the drawing board for this soil

It's not an issue with the snake eating the 'insects' (the term you're looking for is arthropods). The problem is that rainbow millipedes and royal/ball pythons have conflicting care needs.

I haven't kept rainbow millipedes, but to my knowledge they're from rainforests in thailand/vietnam, and require moist substrate at all times. Ball pythons are from scrub and grasslands in Africa. I've been keeping ball pythons for 15 years. It's not good for the pythons to have it damp all the time - you're risking a respiratory infection, among other issues. I had it happen years ago when I first started, because I was keeping them too humid. It would be a quite delicate balance to achieve the proper level of moisture for the millipedes while also providing adequate ventilation to keep it from getting too stuffy for the snake. Not saying it's impossible, but you're putting your animals at a greater risk than if you kept them separately according to their individual, optimal needs.

I have no issue with the surge of so-called "bioactive" setups, but they should aim to mimic reality - is that not the point? These two species aren't even from the same biome. Throwing rainforest animals in with grassland animals makes no sense besides "I thought it would be cool." It does not prioritize the animals' welfare. It may not be realistic in captivity to limit cohabitants to those which naturally occur, but they should at least be from similar environments.

Not trying to be a wet blanket, but that's my 2 cents. Do with it what you will.

Hey yeah I understand what you're saying.
I was lead to believe the milipedes would hang out in the cool/damper areas, since the idea is to have a gradient within the enclosure. Also this particular royal has had a lot of shedding issues in the past and seems to need higher baseline humidity to thrive. He is very healthy.
Definitely no RI, and my exotic vet is more than happy with the way he's being kept.

& I'm sure none of you care given the horror of me trying to add these guys to my CUC but

The guy I originally posted about has died breeder probably wasn't fantastic given he was highly enthusiastic about my intended home for them.

 

[Sterls]

Hey yeah I understand what you're saying.
I was lead to believe the milipedes would hang out in the cool/damper areas, since the idea is to have a gradient within the enclosure. Also this particular royal has had a lot of shedding issues in the past and seems to need higher baseline humidity to thrive. He is very healthy.
Definitely no RI, and my exotic vet is more than happy with the way he's being kept.

The exotics hobby is all about refining your information over time; we all make decisions only to find we can improve later. Sounds like you're trying to take care of them the best you can. Keep researching - this board has a plethora of questions that have been asked already, and many informed users should you struggle finding info.

One thing to note: great exotic vets are rare, and some vets won't be honest about their expertise/confidence with exotics. This could be different in the UK versus the States.

I took my adult female BP in to the vet years ago, suspecting she was gravid. Checked the vet beforehand, they were supposed to be good with snakes. After examination the vet told me that no, her kidneys were starting to fail and she probably wouldn't live many more years. Well...months pass and she lays eggs. Over 5 years later and she's still slithering around.

& I'm sure none of you care given the horror of me trying to add these guys to my CUC but The guy I originally posted about has died

To the contrary, most of us probably care a good deal - at least I do. Death is part of this hobby. It's not always pretty, just as in life. What matters is that when a death occurs, you stand back and assess what you could have done differently.

Best of luck and welcome to the boards. I'm very sorry the millipede did not pull through.

 

[Smotzer]

To the contrary, most of us probably care a good deal - at least I do. Death is part of this hobby. It's not always pretty, just as in life. What matters is that when a death occurs, you stand back and assess what you could have done differently.

Whole heartedly agree with this on all points we do care, but mistakes happen and what’s important is we reevaluate and try and optimize our care and husbandry. And the good thing is it’s in writing that way other people can learn along side with you. Sorry about your millipede.

 

[Nicolepickford]

The exotics hobby is all about refining your information over time; we all make decisions only to find we can improve later. Sounds like you're trying to take care of them the best you can. Keep researching - this board has a plethora of questions that have been asked already, and many informed users should you struggle finding info.

One thing to note: great exotic vets are rare, and some vets won't be honest about their expertise/confidence with exotics. This could be different in the UK versus the States.

I took my adult female BP in to the vet years ago, suspecting she was gravid. Checked the vet beforehand, they were supposed to be good with snakes. After examination the vet told me that no, her kidneys were starting to fail and she probably wouldn't live many more years. Well...months pass and she lays eggs. Over 5 years later and she's still slithering around.

We have many of the same issues with exotic vets in the UK. Luckily for me I seem to have found one that I trust (he completely honest when he's not sure about something, and travels to my area twice a week as he's aware my local vets are about as good as a garden gnome for exotic animals)

I'm glad your girl bounced back and is doing well though!

The vendor is sending a replacement, since I unboxed him in a bad way but it's still sad to have watched him die today. Hopefully the rest thrive

It's not an issue with the snake eating the 'insects' (the term you're looking for is arthropods). The problem is that rainbow millipedes and royal/ball pythons have conflicting care needs.





Not trying to be a wet blanket, but that's my 2 cents. Do with it what you will.

After putting even more research into the topic I am still 100% convinced there is an 18" square patch where the temperature and humidity parameters are optimal for this species of milipede, whilst overall maintaining the heat and humidity gradient for the snake. This is how the tropical isopods are able to thrive.
Or would using milipedes in general regardless of species be the problem?

 

[Sterls]

After putting even more research into the topic I am still 100% convinced there is an 18" square patch where the temperature and humidity parameters are optimal for this species of milipede, whilst overall maintaining the heat and humidity gradient for the snake. This is how the tropical isopods are able to thrive.
Or would using milipedes in general regardless of species be the problem?

Remember cheap gauges don't work well. I'd only trust it if you have a quality temp gun and hygrometer. Not assuming you don't, just stating for the record / others viewing this thread in the future.

Can't say whether cohabitating millipedes with a snake is a good or bad idea. I personally wouldn't do it, but I also haven't dived into naturalistic (ie bioactive) setups myself yet. I'd be worried about mechanical damage to the 'pedes should the snake roll over them. Both the millipedes and the snake will be most active at night, so they'll interact more than you think. You might believe your snake rarely comes down to the ground, but you'd be surprised how much they wander at night. I did miss your post about cage size and substrate depth (my bad) - with that size of a cage and so few millipedes, the risk seems minimal, but it's still there. There is also the risk of the millipedes getting stuck in the water bowl. Millipedes need a shallow dish (if one is provided) to prevent drowning. A bowl large enough for your snake to submerge itself could be a death sentence.

That's the crux of this: it's a risk, and mostly to the millipedes. As a keeper we all have to weigh the risks, so the ultimate decision is up to you. Nobody can tell you all of the risks, because there just isn't enough well documented data.

If you're confident in your research, try it for awhile, post your results (good and bad), and provide more research for those looking to try similar things. If you need more support or have questions concerning the general "bioactive" side of things a frog forum is probably a better bet. They've been doing naturalistic setups for awhile - although I've heard keepers in Europe have been as well. I would encourage you to post your results in this thread should you choose to continue with housing them together.

 

[Nicolepickford]

Remember cheap gauges don't work well. I'd only trust it if you have a quality temp gun and hygrometer. Not assuming you don't, just stating for the record / others viewing this thread in the future.

Can't say whether cohabitating millipedes with a snake is a good or bad idea. I personally wouldn't do it, but I also haven't dived into naturalistic (ie bioactive) setups myself yet. I'd be worried about mechanical damage to the 'pedes should the snake roll over them. Both the millipedes and the snake will be most active at night, so they'll interact more than you think. You might believe your snake rarely comes down to the ground, but you'd be surprised how much they wander at night. I did miss your post about cage size and substrate depth (my bad) - with that size of a cage and so few millipedes, the risk seems minimal, but it's still there. There is also the risk of the millipedes getting stuck in the water bowl. Millipedes need a shallow dish (if one is provided) to prevent drowning. A bowl large enough for your snake to submerge itself could be a death sentence.

There is a few digital probes about and well also use the gun - but I hadn't considered the waterbowl so thank you for pointing that out

I'll see to making that safer before returning them, and update with the results

I gotta ask, if this eggs or poop between the moss and the soil thinking they surely can't poop that much.. or breed that fast

 

[goliathusdavid]

I gotta ask, if this eggs or poop between the moss and the soil thinking they surely can't poop that much.. or breed that fast

Likely frass, as laying so quickly seems unlikely. That said, frass is extremely difficult to distinguish from eggs even for fairly advanced keepers. This is why changing substrate is often such an epic bear.