Is it okay to buy from known smugglers?

[viper69]

When I first got into snakes I had a goal, or a dream if you will, of obtaining 1 of every species of tricolor Lampropeltis (kingsnakes and milksnakes) at the time reptile breeding was relatively new and such a "postage stamp" collection was frowned upon by many. It was felt that if one was going to keep reptiles you owed it to them and to the rest of the community the opportunity to let it live as normal a life as possible and that included letting it breed. This attitude contributed to the proliferation of "basement breeders" who simply turned out large quantities of inferior stock simply to make a profit. Now it has started to go back. I know many people who were breeders with many pairs of animals who have gone back to individual specimens or select pairs simply because the market is saturated with many of them. Now they may have made their decision because they couldn't make a profit on their animals or they may have decided they did not wan to contribute to the glut of animals out there but the result is the same. More and more people are getting more selective about what they have and not as many are breeding willy nilly just to make a quick buck.

A very good friend of mine and a pretty good breeder of ball pythons in the past (its actually difficult for me to think of any kind of exotic he hasn't bred at some point) once said "Having an animal you can't make money on is like having a kid. All they do is cost money and you get nothing out of it but aggravation."

I remember that breeding philosophy all too well. "aren't you going to breed it, why not?" Breeding isn't for everyone. As my collection of herps grew and ultimately Ts, I have been fortunate enough to meet and become friends with some well known breeders. I give them credit, because some of them create some of the unique animals for a given species. The dedication many of them put into it is impressive.

There's a well known and RESPECTED breeder I speak with every so often. He's created a morph that took 30 years to develop, now that's some dedication.

 

[KezyGLA]

True there..Funny I thought smuggle meant illegal haha, but @KezyGLA doesn't seem so sure

Well that it does.. But does taking specimens from the wild legally not harm whatever sp. they are importing too? Its a great topic for discussion. Though I'm afraid its past my bed time

 

[Haksilence]

If we are talking about the seller that I think we are talking about I have made an order with them for T's that I could not find from other individuals on this board. I see multiple "businesses" with websites showing ridiculous prices that are clearly disconnects from the prices I see from individuals on this board and the individual we are naming. Also, if this individual is obtaining illegal T's then why do they have so few adult specimens and huge numbers of slings? I don't even see any adult "wild caught" Aphonopelma chalcodes on their site, but I do see them on several seller sites that are mentioned in positive ways by multiple individuals on this board. Or maybe I am using this seller's site wrong and missing the page with all the adult T's. And why does Europe have such low prices for their species while common species here in the states at the store front sites cost so much? Does cricket prices and the cost of living here exceed Europe that much? I welcome people to correct my error in ways if I am wrong because I don't want to support bad people.

Of course I will always prefer to buy from an individual who is a breeder without a huge store front because I feel they put that extra effort in knowing their T's in an extraordinary way and sharing all of that knowledge to whoever will learn. I can also say that every breeder that I bought from on this site has done a great job in providing me superb quality T's. A store front sometimes has much less time to take care of their huge number of T's.

I welcome individual breeders who can sell legally to people in the USA to notify me directly when you get NW T's from an egg sac. Right now I have too many slings to obtain more, but I love these critters too much to not find more species that I don't currently own once more of the ones I own reach juvenile level. I would also love to get a few more females of certain NW species right now but I rarely see the ones I want available except at places with a store front at crazy prices.

EDIT* I wish the Classified pages could be redone with a better way to search for species. Right now too many results for the same sellers come up on each search. I still don't know what most breeders on this board have to offer because of repeated results for certain sellers.

its because the seller, that everyone knows this post/its comments are aimed towards, buys whole sacs from breeders as a quality of life service. new breeders successfully get a sac, he buys the entire sac for a lump sum to save the breeder time and money in multiple packages and having to house, ship, and care for hundreds of slings. Thats why he has such an insane volume of slings and thats how he maintains his competetive pricing, he buys them at whole sale pricing and then sells them at a small mark up, sometimes even taking a loss on certain specimens, actually a very strong business model. I actually have a local dealer that i work with a bit that i knew sold a ~300 sling sac to this dealer and was the dealers only supply and he had then sold them at ALMOST EXACTLY the per-sling price he bought them for, just to maintain the reputation. literally only made about 50 cent a sling.

now onto the original topic.

before i get started i want to make it clear that i do not condone nor support ANY illegal activity but will be making an attempt at an unbiased analysis of the hypothetical circumstances.

there is a lot of ethical exaggeration being thrown around so far, some to the positive some to the negative. smuggling is bad at its core, either its done to bring prohibited substances in or to dodge paperwork/import fees. the dealer that im almost positive this is geared towards committed the latter.

now lets look at the impact of smuggling or accomplice to smuggling (buying smuggled goods) in this case;
The Negative: the country of origin and the country of destination lose their export/import fees. so the US government doesnt have their cut of the profits, not good, but not exactly a deplorable act either essentially victimless. kind of comparable to going over a state border to a state with a lower sales tax (IE Delaware) for shopping, screwing the government out of a percentage but all in all essentially zero impact. legal dealers have a harder time competing with the lower prices

The Positive: several species were brought, combating a rising demand and a dwindling supply, making the species more accessible and cheaper to hobbiests, thus expanding the hobby and the available gene pools. win for the dealer for sure, but also a win for the hobby minus the short term losses of other dealers.

now onto the hypothetical situation;
the dealer involved in smuggling gets caught 10 years ago, does his time, pays his dues, and no longer conducts business in such a matter. still offers top notch service, selection, and pricing, on top of a strong care for the animals themselves well being. knowing all this, do you avoid buying from them and only focus on some poor choices years ago? or do you focus on the current situation of a, now law abiding, dealer with top notch service?


in this "hypothetical" i choose to take more stock in the present than the past. so long as the dealer conducts themselves within the law currently i see no issue buying from them if the service/selection/care/price is superior to another dealer.

 

[viper69]

But does taking specimens from the wild legally not harm whatever sp. they are importing too?

Not sure what you mean.... All we are discussing is whether people remove animals from the environment legally or illegally.... Legal is Good, Illegal is Bad.

 

[viper69]

The Negative:

You forgot one important negative. Many animals that are stolen from their native country are endangered.

 

[KezyGLA]

Not sure what you mean.... All we are discussing is whether people remove animals from the environment legally or illegally.... Legal is Good, Illegal is Bad.

I agree, like I said in my first reply. I am against it. I can understand what others are saying too though but there shouldnt be any benefits to smuggling or should it not be frowned upon. If it could be regulated that would be awesome but there is always gonna be those people who see an opportunity of making some quick coin. It is a shame that people feed the beast.

But the main point I was trying to make was that people make mistakes and most learn from them and change the errors in their ways. Like the person I mentioned who runs the shop over here. He started off a smuggler, got busted, paid his dues and is now through the book.

 

[viper69]

If it could be regulated that would be awesome but there is always gonna be those people who see an opportunity of making some quick coin. It is a shame that people feed the beast.

Just pure greed. I agree.

 

[Haksilence]

You forgot one important negative. Many animals that are stolen from their native country are endangered.

this is absolutely true, but in this not so hypothetical the species presumed to have been smuggled werent endangered. to the best of my knowledge none of the brachypelma have been listed as endangered since the early 90s. the CITES limitting was more preventative as apposed to restorative, to the best of my knowledge. That being said destruction of habitat is an order of magnitude more damaging than the pet trade IMO.
Like i said i dont condone smuggling in any way, and i would certainly never buy smuggled species, or from a current smuggler. but if the person did the crime and took the punishment the legal system deemed fit i see no need to impose my own punishment.

 

[sschind]

Well that it does.. But does taking specimens from the wild legally not harm whatever sp. they are importing too? Its a great topic for discussion. Though I'm afraid its past my bed time

Both may have an effect on the wild populations but I can't get past the fact that one is legal and the other is not. Besides, smuggled animals are not necessarily illegally collected animals. Smuggled animals can be legally collected wild animals or even captive bred animals. Smuggling generally means that they were shipped into, or out of a country, in an illegal manner regardless of their origin. I believe Brachypelma and Aphonopelma species are listed as cites animals therefore they can not be moved from one country to another without the proper cites paperwork. Shipping 500 CB A chalcodes into or out of any country without the proper documentation is smuggling whether it is done in a plain brown box or in a balloon shoved up someone's ... well lets just say some other manner. Not all smugglers are importing illegally collected WC animals.

 

[Chris LXXIX]

Mah... I don't think a pedophile can pay his debts to the society, nor go figure what he did to his victims, with jail. The only way is Death, with fire for removing even the last grain of his corrupted DNA dust? Better... and, after, Damnatio Memoriae.

 

[Haksilence]

Mah... I don't think a pedophile can pay his debts to the society, nor go figure what he did to his victims, with jail. The only way is Death, with fire for removing even the last grain of his corrupted DNA dust? Better... and, after, Damnatio Memoriae.

i agree, convicted pedophilia should be a guaranteed, no appeal death sentence. there is no excuse, no rehabilitation. If you are a grown adult and you rape a child they should just take you out back of the courthouse and put a bullet in each knee, then in each hip, then in each shoulder, gouge their eyes out, then sodomized till death with a broken glass covered instrument

 

[Chris LXXIX]

i agree, convicted pedophilia should be a guaranteed, no appeal death sentence. there is no excuse, no rehabilitation. If you are a grown adult and you rape a child they should just take you out back of the courthouse and put a bullet in each knee, then in each hip, then in each shoulder, gouge their eyes out, then sodomized till death with a broken glass covered instrument

True, I will put also a S.dehanni in his butt using a funnel, or another lovely idea... hot rice inside a no mortal knife wound, and let Borneo wild rats have fun

 

[Marijan2]

I'm just curious as to when it would be 100% necessary to buy an illegally obtained animal?
...

For examle if there is only 1-2 mature females and no males to breed in hobby, i would not blame anyone who gets illegally obtained mature male to breed and introduce babies in hobby. In the long run it would reduce smuggling from that species and only benefit as it will be more available.

I think it's not the best idea to label things as only good or only bad, everything is in the middle and sometimes it needs to get dirty to get diamonds above ground.

 

[creepa]

For examle if there is only 1-2 mature females and no males to breed in hobby, i would not blame anyone who gets illegally obtained mature male to breed and introduce babies in hobby. In the long run it would reduce smuggling from that species and only benefit as it will be more available.

I think it's not the best idea to label things as only good or only bad, everything is in the middle and sometimes it needs to get dirty to get diamonds above ground.

This is next to impossible..., how can you be 100% shure that you have the same species of male as the female?

You have to collect subadult males and subadult/adult females from the same area in the wild to be shure that you dont create hybrids...

For example: if i have a adult H. lividum how can i be 100% positive that my wildcaught mature male is lividum and not minax or all the other sp. of undiscribed Haplopelma's in Thailand??

 

[creepa]

You forgot one important negative. Many animals that are stolen from their native country are endangered.

Are we still talking about tarantulas?
How do you know this besides the citis species?
Do you have any scientific study or counting of the population that supports this??

 

[Chris LXXIX]

Anyway one thing is sure, continuing this way smugglers or not. T's will remain, more or less, not so sure about lions, gorilla, elephants and hippos, uh -.-

But who cares, sooner Apple and such will create the Internet 3.0 or something with more cool techno/goggles and we will see those directly in our rooms :-s

 

[Jeff23]

For examle if there is only 1-2 mature females and no males to breed in hobby, i would not blame anyone who gets illegally obtained mature male to breed and introduce babies in hobby. In the long run it would reduce smuggling from that species and only benefit as it will be more available.

I think it's not the best idea to label things as only good or only bad, everything is in the middle and sometimes it needs to get dirty to get diamonds above ground.

I have to agree with you.
This is part of the quandary for some tarantulas. Many countries like Brazil have major problems where the habitats of many animals (not just tarantulas) are being destroyed. Would I personally try to smuggle any of these endangered species that are very limited or not available in the hobby? No. But I have to admit I would turn my head the other direction if someone else did it for breeding purposes. Sometimes governments don't have a clue on what they are doing.

 

[viper69]

Are we still talking about tarantulas?
How do you know this besides the citis species?
Do you have any scientific study or counting of the population that supports this??

Animals in general. If you need data contact the USA Federal division on illegal exotic animal trade. The number 1 consumer is China, the number 2 is the USA.

 

[viper69]

this is absolutely true, but in this not so hypothetical the species presumed to have been smuggled werent endangered. to the best of my knowledge none of the brachypelma have been listed as endangered since the early 90s. the CITES limitting was more preventative as apposed to restorative, to the best of my knowledge. That being said destruction of habitat is an order of magnitude more damaging than the pet trade IMO.
Like i said i dont condone smuggling in any way, and i would certainly never buy smuggled species, or from a current smuggler. but if the person did the crime and took the punishment the legal system deemed fit i see no need to impose my own punishment.

I have no idea what case you are talking about, and thus cannot comment. Are you referencing Paul Becker of PetCenterUSA, or someone else? If so, who?

I read a lot of "unnamed smuggler" in this particular thread. I thought people like to deal in direct facts whenever possible, not vague terms that often lead to confusion.

I know that sounds like a really "crazy and bizarre" idea, speaking of facts. But I'm crazy like that.

 

[Scourge]

Many species in the hobby originated from smuggled stock, and I think most new species that will enter the hobby will be smuggled - often simply due to the costs involved in small scale collecting / importing. Many of these are collected 'ethically' in very small numbers, and bred before being offered to the hobby. In contrast, to make collection economically viable, many legal collections / imports are done in large numbers with little consideration to the animals well being. You could also consider the legal collection for the dead trade, where whole areas will be strip mined for spiders and beetles, some being collected by methods such as pouring gasoline down the burrows. All of these animals are then killed and pinned in frames - by the thousands.
For me, smuggling is simply the act of not paying a tax on animals collected. It's much more important to me how the animals are collected, transported and treated. And I doubt there's a single hobbiest who owns mulitple species, who hasn't benefited from smuggled spiders.