Is it okay to buy from known smugglers?

[viper69]

heheh I think that is rather harsh. I am an ex-convict (not a sexual one) but I am judged everywhere I go. Even though my crimes were a decade ago. I know I have put myself in this situation so try to help give back to my communities, even 9 years on. I found a new path after education inside prison and am glad to say I am completely different from the person I once was. I have been reformed.

Though when it comes to people that have a sexual interest in something, it doesnt change.

As for smugglers, there is a well known shop in the UK that was founded by an ex-smuggler and is now the most trusted and respected place to buy arachnids. They still sell WC. I have done business with these shop but I have mostly bought their CB stock or WC males in order for breeding. I will normally go to them for my Livefood.

I believe there is some species that should not be captured from the wild. If there was a way to limit numbers of specimens brought from the wild it would be a perfect world. I am still for the most part against smugglers as (obviously) the more you take from the wild the more endangered they get

Well the person made a statement of principle, I was merely wondering if the poster would live by that principle in all cases, or was selective.

Good for you! Some people do change, some people never do.

 

[viper69]

I couldn't agree more. I bred boas for years. I got out of it because there was so much work for so little return. Along with the Ball Python, the floor fell out because they are fairly easy to breed and the market is saturated. Some of the special morphs used to cost thousands can now be had for a couple hundred. Regulars are almost impossible to even give away. They are like Pit Bulls in an animal shelter. It's sad. People only want the "latest greatest" and that never lasts long.

I try to have only female tarantulas. I get asked often if I plan on breeding. The answer is "no". I merely have females so I'll have them much longer. I and many of us won't add to the hobby by breeding many of the species we own. 5 dollar OBT's are wrong.

I couldn't agree as a herp enthusiast (Ts came much later). B. c. imperators drop like a rock because they are so prolific and they are one of the most popular constrictors on the planet. I couldn't agree more on the morph issue. In the lep gex world you can barely find a normal looking lep gex, let alone one that only has WT genetics. I always liked the high yellow lep gex, this was long before there were any proven mutations, I can't even find those. I hate lep gex w/out their spots and banding.

No one could have predicted the massive amount of morphs for ball pythons. I had owned long before there were any morphs. My friends were always like "oh you didn't get a boa?" Snake snobs.

For balls not too different, though their clutch size is significantly smaller so they hold value much longer than boas. But, now in pet stores I see morphs that used to be 4 figures, going for 99$, that's fine, those are market forces at work. But a normal BP is just as pretty too, and they will be overlooked.

 

[Chris LXXIX]

In most of Europe, there is freedom of buying and selling between countries because they belong to the EU, and there are no costs for customs and such.

Not in Italy, sadly :-s

Even if we are part of the disgraced, banksters UE/EU

 

[Walker253]

While I understand your argument regarding A Chalcodes there is a problem with part of it. If I am shopping for this species, why would I buy a sling if I can get an adult female for $50. This perpetuates a market of getting only wild specimens and never breeding the species to sell because there is little demand for it.

If the numbers of the wild population remain at a healthy level, does it truly matter? Don't break that statement apart, use it as the whole. If the wild numbers drop in a measurable manner, I would expect the State of Arizona to institute a permit process for collection. Your 50 dollar tarantula would be worth a lot more and you might think about breeding her at that point. It's all supply and demand.

I personally think that a 1/8" Aphonopelma chalcodes sling is so tiny and hard, for at least me, to take care of that it's not worth it.

 

[Chris LXXIX]

I mean, ah ah ah, how much stupid Italian politicians are?

Let me explain well two or three things:

- there's this dumb as F-Word law, still on, basically. Here, translate if you want, straight from the official Internet page:
http://www.camera.it/parlam/leggi/03213l.htm

- but, but, because there's always a "but" in life, here I have the full, 100% signed (as uploaded prior) CITES papers when/if purchasing a CITES protected 'Brachy' (Arachnids in this case, let's leave other CITES animals out).

- Still, while you can't "import" nor else, you can only purchasing those at Arachnids/other inverts Expo/Fairs.

Make sense, eh

I tell you, people like me deserved a medal for the struggle, including to face the mockery of those Italian Herp pundits that, save for few ones, they "Meh" when banned Arachnids... too much busy backstabbing and acting "Professors" between each other, ah ah :-s

 

[viper69]

That's a pretty harsh comparison.

You made a statement of principle, I was merely wondering if you would live by that principle in all cases, or was selective. As written, it was an all encompassing statement, hence my question.

Getting into trouble with the law doesn't mean you're a bad person, just that you did something wrong and need to pay for it before moving on with your life (obviously depending on the severity of what you did)

Really? So if someone murders someone, not for self defense, they aren't a bad person, they just did something "wrong", no different than stealing a toy from the toy store....?

If someone commits white collar crime that knowingly results in a family losing their home, that person only did something "wrong" and is not a bad person?

But then again I thin even if you smuggled a male for breeding purposes what was it planning on doing in the wild? Then what if its offspring in the wild all died? .. But then again if they lived?? Ahhhhh

Those are all hypothetical questions, all we know from the above is the following: regardless of intent, smuggling is often the theft of a nation's resources, case closed. Those people need to be put in prison or whatever the country's penalty is.

So no, if anything the price of live here is much higher compared to the states

I've traveled to Europe a bit, friends there too. I've often wondered how true that is. Our taxes are lower. But there is no socialized medicine here, there is no free education after primary school. So if one factors in those costs I wonder how different the cost of existence is. I haven't seen such a break down yet. My friends in Europe always say "it's so great there, the salaries are so high", and I tell them "yeah they need to be because you have to pay for university, pay for health insurance, and if you want to send your kids to college, you have to save up for that too!!

My friend's son went to McGill University in Canada, and excellent university on par w/many of the great schools here. He paid nothing because he's a citizen of that country. You cannot do that here.

Is this because of the regulations and laws in the USA are more strict? Or is the paperwork much more costly to import? Or is this because smuggling into Europe is easier?

All of those.

Smuggling to pedophilia for a comparison? Somebody is wound up a little tight, sorry whoever that was, but wow

@Walker253 Not at all. I was not making a comparison of the two. I was asking about the poster's original statement which was a blanket statement. See my above comment in this post.

 

[Jeff23]

If the numbers of the wild population remain at a healthy level, does it truly matter? Don't break that statement apart, use it as the whole. If the wild numbers drop in a measurable manner, I would expect the State of Arizona to institute a permit process for collection. Your 50 dollar tarantula would be worth a lot more and you might think about breeding her at that point. It's all supply and demand.

I personally think that a 1/8" Aphonopelma chalcodes sling is so tiny and hard, for at least me, to take care of that it's not worth it.

The whole problem with your argument is it must be broken apart because you are depending on all parts of it to be true. How are you going to keep the wild numbers healthy? There are large numbers of bird watchers to protect the birds. There are farmers and other food producers to fight for the pollinators and several variety are still in trouble due to various reasons (possibly related to construction destroying their sources of food, etc.). Most other insects and wild animals don't have large numbers of people who hate them in combination with a group of greedy people trying to make money off of them. The number of spider enthusiasts who live in these zones where they live is not large. Will they realize there is a shortage when they can't find them on their available sources to sell anymore? And wildlife people have numerous species to monitor. If there aren't people with money pushing them to look into the population counts the population may reach warning ranges before it hits the radar.

When greed is involved, I don't believe for a minute that the system will protect itself.

EDIT* I have some 1/4" A. Hentzi's and 1/3" A. Marxi's and I love them.

 

[viper69]

When greed is involved, I don't believe for a minute that the system will protect itself.

That is so true. Not just in wildlife, but in almost all other areas of life I have observed.

 

[N1ghtFire]

You made a statement of principle, I was merely wondering if you would live by that principle in all cases, or was selective. As written, it was an all encompassing statement, hence my question.



Really? So if someone murders someone, not for self defense, they aren't a bad person, they just did something "wrong", no different than stealing a toy from the toy store....?

If someone commits white collar crime that knowingly results in a family losing their home, that person only did something "wrong" and is not a bad person?

As I said it depends on the severity of what they did. Not all crimes are equal, for example someone who was caught speeding or littering is not to be compared with someone who raped or murdered someone. Some crimes are forgivable, some are not. It just depends. On the case of smuggling I belive that is forgivable and worth another chance, if they have made an effort to correct themselves.

My point was that the fact youve been in trouble with the law before does not dictate rather or not youre a generally bad or good person, who you are depends on a lot more than that. So you cant really say "oh that person is a terrible or noncredible person because they got in trouble years ago." Your judgment of another human, their buisness, ect. should be based on a lot more than one fact or troubling point in their life. That's just my opinion.

 

[viper69]

As I said it depends on the severity of what they did. Not all crimes are equal, for example someone who was caught speeding or littering is not to be compared with someone who raped or murdered someone. Some crimes are forgivable, some are not. It just depends. On the case of smuggling I belive that is forgivable and worth another chance, if they have made an effort to correct themselves.

My point was that the fact youve been in trouble with the law before does not dictate rather or not youre a generally bad or good person, who you are depends on a lot more than that. So you cant really say "oh that person is a terrible or noncredible person because they got in trouble years ago." Your judgment of another human, their buisness, ect. should be based on a lot more than one fact or troubling point in their life. That's just my opinion.

Ah I see now. So your judgements are flexible based on the crime. That makes sense and is reasonable.

 

[Walker253]

The whole problem with your argument is it must be broken apart because you are depending on all parts of it to be true. How are you going to keep the wild numbers healthy? There are large numbers of bird watchers to protect the birds. There are farmers and other food producers to fight for the pollinators and several variety are still in trouble due to various reasons (possibly related to construction destroying their sources of food, etc.). Most other insects and wild animals don't have large numbers of people who hate them in combination with a group of greedy people trying to make money off of them. The number of spider enthusiasts who live in these zones where they live is not large. Will they realize there is a shortage when they can't find them on their available sources to sell anymore? And wildlife people have numerous species to monitor. If there aren't people with money pushing them to look into the population counts the population may reach warning ranges before it hits the radar.

When greed is involved, I don't believe for a minute that the system will protect itself.

EDIT* I have some 1/4" A. Hentzi's and 1/3" A. Marxi's and I love them.

The last thing I'll say about this is I'll start worrying about the A chalcodes when Hollywood popularizes them. Seeing that they aren't a bright and colorful species, I doubt it happens. There may be many selling them, but I doubt they are or ever will be on a top 10 most popular list. There is just too much out there. It's all supply and demand and there are so many choices out there. No offense to anyone by voicing my opinion. I respect your opinions and like this discussion. Off to work I go. TTFN

 

[Jeff23]

The last thing I'll say about this is I'll start worrying about the A chalcodes when Hollywood popularizes them. Seeing that they aren't a bright and colorful species, I doubt it happens. There may be many selling them, but I doubt they are or ever will be on a top 10 most popular list. There is just too much out there. It's all supply and demand and there are so many choices out there. No offense to anyone by voicing my opinion. I respect your opinions and like this discussion. Off to work I go. TTFN

I think things go beyond Hollywood. There are lots of people who hate Hollywood and the continued reissue of garbage that has already been done. Many people want a large size tarantula and they need to be able to afford it. The chalcode is a beautiful T and enough of them are docile enough to make individuals willing to buy it after seeing it cost less than half of the next higher affordable adult tarantula. However, I really hope you are right.

I can only control my own rules. I will never buy any T where I know it is "wild caught" or smuggled.

 

[viper69]

I think all countries could use some sort of project where naturalistic facilities would be established in each country that conserves and propagates local wild life. And export extra captive bred specimens(I'm looking at you, Brasil). It would ideally fully eliminate need for smuggling. Also something should be done about animals in deforestation/construction zone. If some cleanup team captures wildlife on area designated for chopping and set them in facilities to breed, and sell offspring it could elevate the problem.

This is so true. I talked to a biologist that setup a captive breeding in a country for frogs to reduce the WC capture. Too often people don't realize that it's not just one or two or three people capturing many of these endangered animals. When it comes to tarantulas in the USA, it's estimated that perhaps only 1 or 2% of a single sac mature and reproduce. When I see 5 tables from 5 vendors at 2 different shows (can only imagine nationally) with about 20-50 adult WC tarantulas, I can't help but think this doesn't affect the population as it goes on year after year.

Just like B. smithi and the various Rose Hairs. You can only collect WC for so long before the population will crash sooner or later and become extinct. A captive breeding program in the host nation would be useful to any hobby because it keeps the captive gene pool fresh.

 

[viper69]

I'll start worrying about the A chalcodes when Hollywood popularizes them

Sure that's what happened to B. smithi in part. But one doesn't need Hollywood for a species to go extinct, all one needs is man.

 

[Venom1080]

*THREAD UPDATE*
NEW OPTION
some may want to change answers. thanks @Walker253

 

[Walker253]

*THREAD UPDATE*
NEW OPTION
some may want to change answers. thanks @Walker253

You're killing me, haha

 

[sschind]

Honestly it really depends on a lot of things. If not for smugglers we wouldn't probably have half as species we have now in hobby. But unless 100% necesserily i'll always buy fairly imported or CB ones. Don't get me wrong, i'm not supporting it, but they helped our hobby quite a bit.

I'm just curious as to when it would be 100% necessary to buy an illegally obtained animal?

Personally I don't buy into the whole "if it weren't for smugglers we wouldn't have half the stuff we do have" argument because, even though true, so what. There are animals we do not have now and the only way to get them would be illegal. Are these people saying its OK because hey, its a really cool animal and besides half the stuff we have now originated from illegal stuff anyway.

Would you hire a convicted pedophile as a babysitter?

If they have done their time and paid their debt to society apparently it would be perfectly OK. I started a post earlier where I was going to mention the same thing but thought better of it because of the inevitable "so you are saying smuggling a spider is the same as child molesting" replies but since you brought it up... I would say your views on this (paid his debt to society) would depend on your views of the seriousness of the crime. I'm guessing everyone would think child molestation is far more serious than smuggling so their views on whether or not a perpetrator has paid his/her debt would probably differ. Try thinking of something a little less serious such as shoplifting.

My issue with smugglers, and people who use copyrighted material illegally to resell and things like this is that they are breaking the law for personal gain, often at the expense of someone who is going about it the legal way. People will say "so you never drive above the speed limit" but its not a fair comparison. No one is being hurt by someone driving 20 MPH over the speed limit. You being able to undercut someone else's prices because you, illegally, didn't pay all the same fees and expenses they did is different.

Now that's for the buying of smuggled animals thing. At issue here is not smuggled animals but a person who is now presumably going about it the legal way but has been known to smuggle in the past. That's where your views on the seriousness of the crime and your views on has he truly paid his debt come into play.

I can see both sides of the story and I understand the forgiveness aspect but personally I can't think of a single item that I need bad enough to purchase from a known smuggler. If there was an animal I needed or wanted I would rather pay more from a legitimate dealer than to buy from someone who has smuggled in the past. There have been animals I have had an opportunity to get but I have passed because I couldn't satisfy my own questions on whether the animals were obtained legally. I've seen animals I really wanted but the seller has smuggling convictions so I pass. For me its the same as not buying from someone who doesn't take care of their animals or conducts business in a way I do not approve of. If it something I deem serious enough I will take my business elsewhere.

 

[sschind]

I find it difficulr to be on the fence with this. I believe they shouldnt be smuggled. Though for obvious purposes I believe that the term 'smuggle' is loose when it comes to species.

But then again I thin even if you smuggled a male for breeding purposes what was it planning on doing in the wild? Then what if its offspring in the wild all died? .. But then again if they lived?? Ahhhhh

Very good question @Venom1080

Instead of smuggled how about we say "Obtained Illegally" no room for doubt there then

 

[viper69]

Instead of smuggled how about we say "Obtained Illegally" no room for doubt there then

True there..Funny I thought smuggle meant illegal haha, but @KezyGLA doesn't seem so sure

 

[sschind]

I couldn't agree more. I bred boas for years. I got out of it because there was so much work for so little return. Along with the Ball Python, the floor fell out because they are fairly easy to breed and the market is saturated. Some of the special morphs used to cost thousands can now be had for a couple hundred. Regulars are almost impossible to even give away. They are like Pit Bulls in an animal shelter. It's sad. People only want the "latest greatest" and that never lasts long.

I try to have only female tarantulas. I get asked often if I plan on breeding. The answer is "no". I merely have females so I'll have them much longer. I and many of us won't add to the hobby by breeding many of the species we own. 5 dollar OBT's are wrong.

When I first got into snakes I had a goal, or a dream if you will, of obtaining 1 of every species of tricolor Lampropeltis (kingsnakes and milksnakes) at the time reptile breeding was relatively new and such a "postage stamp" collection was frowned upon by many. It was felt that if one was going to keep reptiles you owed it to them and to the rest of the community the opportunity to let it live as normal a life as possible and that included letting it breed. This attitude contributed to the proliferation of "basement breeders" who simply turned out large quantities of inferior stock simply to make a profit. Now it has started to go back. I know many people who were breeders with many pairs of animals who have gone back to individual specimens or select pairs simply because the market is saturated with many of them. Now they may have made their decision because they couldn't make a profit on their animals or they may have decided they did not wan to contribute to the glut of animals out there but the result is the same. More and more people are getting more selective about what they have and not as many are breeding willy nilly just to make a quick buck.

A very good friend of mine and a pretty good breeder of ball pythons in the past (its actually difficult for me to think of any kind of exotic he hasn't bred at some point) once said "Having an animal you can't make money on is like having a kid. All they do is cost money and you get nothing out of it but aggravation."