Is it okay to buy from known smugglers?

[Chris LXXIX]

I am an ex-convict (not a sexual one) but I am judged everywhere I go.

In Spain or Scotland, if I can ask my man? :-s

 

[KezyGLA]

In Spain or Scotland, if I can ask my man? :-s

England ahhah

 

[Chris LXXIX]

England ahhah

Ah ah

 

[KezyGLA]

In Spain or Scotland, if I can ask my man? :-s

No problem, Chris. It was Scotland.

 

[N1ghtFire]

Would you hire a convicted pedophile as a babysitter?

That's a pretty harsh comparison. Pedophilia is a lot more extreme than smuggling. XD
It would be more like hiring someone who had been to jail and stole from their job many years ago to work for you.. Which I would as long as they are no longer stealing and have paid their dues for what they did. I do believe in second chances and that people can change.

Sexual crimes are a whole other ballgame than smuggling and that topic gets somewhat personal to me. I dont think stealing/smuggling something makes you a bad person at heart, just bad decisions. But if someone thinks its okay enough to disregard another humans feelings and force something sexual on them, especially a child, well then yeah they are a pretty terrible person at heart and I would have nothing to do with them. I definitely wouldn't buy tarantulas from a pedophile, much less let them near my kids. XD
Getting into trouble with the law doesn't mean you're a bad person, just that you did something wrong and need to pay for it before moving on with your life (obviously depending on the severity of what you did). How you move forward and make up for it afterwards is what determines the person you are. The seller we are talking about has done that, and has come back to the hobby and began moving forward and getting back on track. He has apoligized for what he did, admitted it was wrong, and is back trying to provide good quality animals and high customer satisfaction for us again, and has documentation to prove he is doing it legally. The fact he was able to keep his head up and move forward after his runin with the law I think says something about his character, he is doing what he loves just like all of us. The fact some of you can't forgive him and continue to judge him after how far he has come from what he did many years ago, I think says something about your character. I'm not saying you have to buy from him or be his #1 fan or even like the guy, but he is still trying to get back on his feet after what happened and hasn't done anything wrong recently (that I am aware of. Fill me in if im wrong) yet you guys still kick him while he's down. I just don't think that is fair to anyone to be put down when they are still trying to get back up.

 

[KezyGLA]

I find it difficulr to be on the fence with this. I believe they shouldnt be smuggled. Though for obvious purposes I believe that the term 'smuggle' is loose when it comes to species.

But then again I thin even if you smuggled a male for breeding purposes what was it planning on doing in the wild? Then what if its offspring in the wild all died? .. But then again if they lived?? Ahhhhh

Very good question @Venom1080

 

[Jeff23]

If we are talking about the seller that I think we are talking about I have made an order with them for T's that I could not find from other individuals on this board. I see multiple "businesses" with websites showing ridiculous prices that are clearly disconnects from the prices I see from individuals on this board and the individual we are naming. Also, if this individual is obtaining illegal T's then why do they have so few adult specimens and huge numbers of slings? I don't even see any adult "wild caught" Aphonopelma chalcodes on their site, but I do see them on several seller sites that are mentioned in positive ways by multiple individuals on this board. Or maybe I am using this seller's site wrong and missing the page with all the adult T's. And why does Europe have such low prices for their species while common species here in the states at the store front sites cost so much? Does cricket prices and the cost of living here exceed Europe that much? I welcome people to correct my error in ways if I am wrong because I don't want to support bad people.

Of course I will always prefer to buy from an individual who is a breeder without a huge store front because I feel they put that extra effort in knowing their T's in an extraordinary way and sharing all of that knowledge to whoever will learn. I can also say that every breeder that I bought from on this site has done a great job in providing me superb quality T's. A store front sometimes has much less time to take care of their huge number of T's.

I welcome individual breeders who can sell legally to people in the USA to notify me directly when you get NW T's from an egg sac. Right now I have too many slings to obtain more, but I love these critters too much to not find more species that I don't currently own once more of the ones I own reach juvenile level. I would also love to get a few more females of certain NW species right now but I rarely see the ones I want available except at places with a store front at crazy prices.

EDIT* I wish the Classified pages could be redone with a better way to search for species. Right now too many results for the same sellers come up on each search. I still don't know what most breeders on this board have to offer because of repeated results for certain sellers.

 

[Marijan2]

There is bigger problem down the surface. Smuggling is all about supply and demand and exist purely because of current export policies and unregulated market. I think all countries could use some sort of project where naturalistic facilities would be established in each country that conserves and propagates local wild life. And export extra captive bred specimens(I'm looking at you, Brasil). It would ideally fully eliminate need for smuggling. Also something should be done about animals in deforestation/construction zone. If some cleanup team captures wildlife on area designated for chopping and set them in facilities to breed, and sell offspring it could elevate the problem.
Until something is done, smuggling will surely keep to exist. The best example is weed situation in USA, before legalization there was huge black market for it, and after legalizing and regulating it, both consumers and states are profiting making only dealers unhappy.

 

[Jeff23]

There is bigger problem down the surface. Smuggling is all about supply and demand and exist purely because of current export policies and unregulated market. I think all countries could use some sort of project where naturalistic facilities would be established in each country that conserves and propagates local wild life. And export extra captive bred specimens(I'm looking at you, Brasil). It would ideally fully eliminate need for smuggling. Also something should be done about animals in deforestation/construction zone. If some cleanup team captures wildlife on area designated for chopping and set them in facilities to breed, and sell offspring it could elevate the problem.
Until something is done, smuggling will surely keep to exist. The best example is weed situation in USA, before legalization there was huge black market for it, and after legalizing and regulating it, both consumers and states are profiting making only dealers unhappy.

And Brasil could certainly use more money right now with their economic situation.

 

[KezyGLA]

And why does Europe have such low prices for their species while common species here in the states at the store front sites cost so much? Does cricket prices and the cost of living here exceed Europe that much? I welcome people to correct my error in ways if I am wrong because I don't want to support bad people.

Our common species are the same as USA. The thing is that the hobby is cheaper as a whole in Europe as there are so many hobbiests and breeders making the Ts at much lower price than over the pond. The species that cost a bomb for you in the states are the same for us. We also need to fork out much more for those species. Even the common ones.

As for the cost of living . That I can tell you that you could buy a large 4 bedroom villa/ detached house in most places in the states for a studio flat in most places in North and West Europe. Also gas prices and taxes are very little in the states compared to Europe. So no, if anything the price of live here is much higher compared to the states, although when it comes to theraphosidae enthusiasts and purchasing Ts it is more and thats why cheaper. More breeders to keep up with demand. If you catch my drift.

 

[Jeff23]

Our common species are the same as USA. The thing is that the hobby is cheaper as a whole in Europe as there are so many hobbiests and breeders making the Ts at much lower price than over the pond. The species that cost a bomb for you in the states are the same for us. We also need to fork out much more for those species. Even the common ones.

As for the cost of living . That I can tell you that you could buy a large 4 bedroom villa/ detached house in most places in the states for a studio flat in most places in North and West Europe. Also gas prices and taxes are very little in the states compared to Europe. So no, if anything the price of live here is much higher compared to the states, although when it comes to theraphosidae enthusiasts and purchasing Ts it is more and thats why cheaper. More breeders to keep up with demand. If you catch my drift.

There are also numerous additional species that are not available in the USA (Even this supposedly suspected supplier has none of those varieties that I would love to own which are available in Europe). Is this because of the regulations and laws in the USA are more strict? Or is the paperwork much more costly to import? Or is this because smuggling into Europe is easier? The entire situation is kind of perplexing due to all of the regulations that different countries impose, etc. None of it fixes the problems.

 

[KezyGLA]

There are also numerous additional species that are not available in the USA (Even this supposedly suspected supplier has none of those varieties that I would love to own which are available in Europe). Is this because of the regulations and laws in the USA are more strict? Or is the paperwork much more costly to import? Or is this because smuggling into Europe is easier? The entire situation is kind of perplexing due to all of the regulations that different countries impose, etc. None of it fixes the problem.

I would agree laws on import probably differ. When it comes to the rarer Ts I am sure there has been a lot of European breeders buying a smuggled pair. I mean not everone who acquires a rare sp. but there will be without a doubt more than a few that obtain them without abiding by laws.

 

[Realevil1]

There is bigger problem down the surface. Smuggling is all about supply and demand and exist purely because of current export policies and unregulated market. I think all countries could use some sort of project where naturalistic facilities would be established in each country that conserves and propagates local wild life. And export extra captive bred specimens(I'm looking at you, Brasil). It would ideally fully eliminate need for smuggling. Until something is done, smuggling will surely keep to exist.

Strongly agree with this point of view.

As many have said, kids run around catching arachnids and sell them for profit only because they know there are buyers. Correct?
So if those buyers and or smugglers didn't have a customer base interested in purchasing wild collected specimens, then there would be no market and collection as well as smuggling would slowly decline to almost nil.

This would benefit the hobby, and imo should be a more widely adopted point of view because in 10 years many unique locales of arachnids, reptiles and birds will cease to exist.

 

[Andrea82]

On the topic of pricing, US, and Europe, tarantula are way more expensive in the US due to import costs.
In most of Europe, there is freedom of buying and selling between countries because they belong to the EU, and there are no costs for customs and such. In dealing with theraphosids, this is a good thing. On everything else, not so much.

Also, in Europe as a whole, there are more breeders per hobbyists to choose from, as opposed to the US, where there seem to be more hobbyists per breeder. So hobbyists get a better price because of competition in Europe, and because of high availability.

As to buying from a known smuggler..no, I would not.

 

[Marijan2]

There are also numerous additional species that are not available in the USA (Even this supposedly suspected supplier has none of those varieties that I would love to own which are available in Europe). Is this because of the regulations and laws in the USA are more strict? Or is the paperwork much more costly to import? Or is this because smuggling into Europe is easier? The entire situation is kind of perplexing due to all of the regulations that different countries impose, etc. None of it fixes the problems.

I think i can shed light to this a little bit. Here in EU, you need papers only for T's(and a matter of fact any other animal) on CITES list, and only Brachypelma and Aphonopelma are on there. You can keep ANY other species without a single question from authorities or anyone else. If it's smuggled into EU without authorities notice, it's golden and perfectly viable for future trade and breed

 

[Realevil1]

On the topic of pricing, US, and Europe, tarantula are way more expensive in the US due to import costs.

Canada aswell. For example P sazimai and GBB females here are 250$-400. Ouch.

 

[Walker253]

Wow, wild thread that went to a place that wasn't originally intended IMO. Smuggling to pedophilia for a comparison? Somebody is wound up a little tight, sorry whoever that was, but wow. To the survey question, I need an option "C". If a person was caught smuggling years ago, has paid his price to society, and is now doing things properly, why wouldn't I buy from him? Would I buy a tarantula that I believe is being smuggled? Of course not. Don't mix the two up. If the guy gets caught over and over for smuggling and can't seem to get it right and do things legally, he would deserve the harsh feelings and should be banned from dealing, but it doesn't sound like that's the case.

Moving forward, I've seen on a few threads about the wild caught A chalcodes. In Arizona, they are listed as common, non threatened and there is no permit needed for collection. They aren't hard to find. There are municipalities that shut down roads so the boys who come out in force can wander to find the girls. There is a big difference between the demise of wild caught B smithi's and A chalcodes. That would be Hollywood. People see something on television and movies, they want it. 40 years ago, the B smithi and everything close to it was in every pet shop in the nation. They were all wild caught and most died because people didn't have the knowledge to care for them. When they died, they were replaced. It wasn't like today with instant information on boards like this and sites like YouTube. Lastly, there are watch groups that observe the populations of animals. We as a society are much more sensitive of things like dwindling numbers. I would place my hopes (and reasonable expectation) of the continued thriving of the A chalcodes population in the observations of the people who pay attention out there.

 

[Realevil1]

Lowering prices is not necessarily a good thing. In other hobbies rock bottom prices bring many other very negative aspects.
Take for instance the reptile hobby. Prices fell so far that reptile rescues are now overrun with boas and ball pythons. As well as many species of gecko now being willingly neglected by owners because they are just a cheap fad for many, as well as others species now used as feeders.
T's are no different.

The lower prices get on high maintenance and aggressive species, the worse our hobby looks especially with more newbies and irresponsible keepers buying $10 Ceratogyrus, Pterinochilus, Tapinauchenius, and black widows and death stalkers ect.
Rather than selling cheap unwanted pets, ignorant people just let them die and toss them out after. I see it all the time.

 

[Walker253]

Lowering prices is not necessarily a good thing. In other hobbies rock bottom prices bring many other very negative aspects.
Take for instance the reptile hobby. Prices fell so far that reptile rescues are now overrun with boas and ball pythons. As well as many species of gecko now being willingly neglected by owners because they are just a cheap fad for many, as well as others species now used as feeders.
T's are no different.

The lower prices get on high maintenance and aggressive species, the worse our hobby looks especially with more newbies and irresponsible keepers buying $10 Ceratogyrus, Pterinochilus, Tapinauchenius, and black widows and death stalkers ect.
Rather than selling cheap unwanted pets, ignorant people just let them die and toss them out after. I see it all the time.

I couldn't agree more. I bred boas for years. I got out of it because there was so much work for so little return. Along with the Ball Python, the floor fell out because they are fairly easy to breed and the market is saturated. Some of the special morphs used to cost thousands can now be had for a couple hundred. Regulars are almost impossible to even give away. They are like Pit Bulls in an animal shelter. It's sad. People only want the "latest greatest" and that never lasts long.

I try to have only female tarantulas. I get asked often if I plan on breeding. The answer is "no". I merely have females so I'll have them much longer. I and many of us won't add to the hobby by breeding many of the species we own. 5 dollar OBT's are wrong.

 

[Jeff23]

Wow, wild thread that went to a place that wasn't originally intended IMO. Smuggling to pedophilia for a comparison? Somebody is wound up a little tight, sorry whoever that was, but wow. To the survey question, I need an option "C". If a person was caught smuggling years ago, has paid his price to society, and is now doing things properly, why wouldn't I buy from him? Would I buy a tarantula that I believe is being smuggled? Of course not. Don't mix the two up. If the guy gets caught over and over for smuggling and can't seem to get it right and do things legally, he would deserve the harsh feelings and should be banned from dealing, but it doesn't sound like that's the case.

Moving forward, I've seen on a few threads about the wild caught A chalcodes. In Arizona, they are listed as common, non threatened and there is no permit needed for collection. They aren't hard to find. There are municipalities that shut down roads so the boys who come out in force can wander to find the girls. There is a big difference between the demise of wild caught B smithi's and A chalcodes. That would be Hollywood. People see something on television and movies, they want it. 40 years ago, the B smithi and everything close to it was in every pet shop in the nation. They were all wild caught and most died because people didn't have the knowledge to care for them. When they died, they were replaced. It wasn't like today with instant information on boards like this and sites like YouTube. Lastly, there are watch groups that observe the populations of animals. We as a society are much more sensitive of things like dwindling numbers. I would place my hopes (and reasonable expectation) of the continued thriving of the A chalcodes population in the observations of the people who pay attention out there.

While I understand your argument regarding A Chalcodes there is a problem with part of it. If I am shopping for this species, why would I buy a sling if I can get an adult female for $50. This perpetuates a market of getting only wild specimens and never breeding the species to sell because there is little demand for it.

EDIT* Sooner or later the demand for adults in the species, new construction, people's hatred/fear of spiders, etc. will catch up with it.