interesting thoughts

jimip

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so ive been immersing myself into the world of keeping t's and one thought has been stuck so ill share it. if we take ts and put them in tanks and breed them to the point where we doint bring them in from the wild anymore, could they adapt to tank living? could they become new species over time? i mean we turned dogs from wolves and relatives right? and most invertebrates heave a faster evolution because of the faster generations. so in 200 years your rosie and the rosie you see on your vacation could be different on a huge scale, maybe enough to say a differant species right?
 

Chris_Skeleton

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There are breeders and have been for a while, and they have been doing just that for quite some time now. Tarantulas have been kept in tanks for years now. A captive bred spider will live in a tank/deli cup it's whole life. How have they not adapted to tank living?
 

Hobo

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There are breeders and have been for a while, and they have been doing just that for quite some time now. Tarantulas have been kept in tanks for years now. A captive bred spider will live in a tank/deli cup it's whole life. How have they not adapted to tank living?
I think he's talking about domestication.

It'll be a looong way until we see that, I think. I'm glad I'll be long dead before we start seeing teacup avics, and all that other nonsense.
 

Clement

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it's possible but the problem is arthropods are really old compared to human and they have not evolved a lot in the past million years, so it will take a lot more than 200 years to see a new specie. on a long time period, some mutations can occur and these mutations can be transmitted to the captive population over the generations and slowly (very slowly) the 2 population of g.rosea will become 2 different species. the fact that each years wild caught specimens are imported and may be bred with some captives specimen may slow down the process.
 

Kirk

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In terms of artificial selection, you might be able to get particular traits fixed. But even with backcrossings, you'll have to engage in this for years considering the lengthy time it takes to raise individuals to sexual maturity.

But, under the artificial conditions we provide, individuals are largely isolated from the selective regimes their counterparts would experience in the wild, so even genetic drift might result in some novelties over time.
 

jimip

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it's possible but the problem is arthropods are really old compared to human and they have not evolved a lot in the past million years, so it will take a lot more than 200 years to see a new specie. on a long time period, some mutations can occur and these mutations can be transmitted to the captive population over the generations and slowly (very slowly) the 2 population of g.rosea will become 2 different species. the fact that each years wild caught specimens are imported and may be bred with some captives specimen may slow down the process.
they havent changed because they havent needed to there like sharks they are in the niche they came into and go for the most part unchallenged. that has little to do with the little change to say they cant change is insane. coral cannot change tarantulas are no where near as set in there ways the ocean hasnt had a huge change in millions of year the rainforest's changes on an almost hourly periods.
 

AgentD006las

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I think he's talking about domestication.

It'll be a looong way until we see that, I think. I'm glad I'll be long dead before we start seeing teacup avics, and all that other nonsense.
Hobo, your really on a roll. The last 5 post ive seen from you got me crackin up! {D {D {D

rainforest's changes on an almost hourly periods.
Do you have an article to share this hourly evolution?
 

Bill S

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it's possible but the problem is arthropods are really old compared to human and they have not evolved a lot in the past million years,...
Arthropods continue to evolve, just like everything else. The rate of change will depend on selective pressures. If the tarantulas are facing the same selective pressures now that they faced 100,000 years ago, then they will not change much. And some varieties of arthropods are almost identical today to what the fossil record contains. But some have changed. For example, There's a cave I've done some work in where we've found a new species of scorpion. We can tell what it evolved from - a species of forest dwelling scorpion that still exists. But the forests have been retreating due to regional climate change for several thousand years. The new species is a result of one population seeking shelter in that cave as the forest disappeared, becoming isolated, and evolving in its new environment.

In captivity, with animals that have high reproductive rates, selective breeding and artificial conditions in captivity will result in faster evolution. To some extent this is happening whether we like it or not. Captive tarantulas that adapt well to cage conditions, captive diets, etc. are the ones that produce the next generations, while the more delicate individuals that don't do well in captive conditions die off. Each generation produced in captivity is better adapted to captivity than the one before it. If people choose to breed only "the prettiest" ones, that's another selective pressure that will produce quick evolution.
 

jimip

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Hobo, your really on a roll. The last 5 post ive seen from you got me crackin up! {D {D {D



Do you have an article to share this hourly evolution?

not hourly evolution, hourly environmental changes. and this might be a bit of an exaggeration, but as compared to the ocean its an inconsistent mess. the species in each are used to there inviorment. but change in a rainforest is survived and learned from. to much change on a reef is catastrophic, this fact points to there ability to change and having relyable food, temperature, light, and protection could make them want to change.
 

Great Basin Ben

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I think the best chance for a new species, will likely be a result of selective pressures, forcing two already established populations of an Identical Genus into the same ecosystem, thus eventually giving them the opportunity for successful copulation. However, mere successful copulation doesn't prohibit the offspring from being sterile. Only if chromosomes can pair up evenly, will the new offspring be fertile, and able to pass on these newly combined genes.

For example, if, over a given time, Aphonopelma iodius, and say Aphonopelma chalcodes began to cohabit extensively in an isolated area, then possibly we might see a subspecies, or eventually a new species come from this type of pairing. But a Chilean Rose hair, bred with a Chilean Rose Hair, is always going to be a Chilean Rose Hair. If we could live for another 200 years, and were still breeding offspring of some of the first CRH's ever, the species would STILL be that of a Chilean Rose Hair. The species would not change.

That said, there MAY be many new species created, accidentally by hobby breeders, if absolute certainty is not known on a given breeding Tarantula, and hybridizing occurs. MOST of these hybrids will likely be infertile, but those that aren't might likely become the cornerstones for NEW hobby species, indeed. I can't say that this would be a good thing, but it is a possibility.
 

jimip

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I think the best chance for a new species, will likely be a result of selective pressures, forcing two already established populations of an Identical Genus into the same ecosystem, thus eventually giving them the opportunity for successful copulation. However, mere successful copulation doesn't prohibit the offspring from being sterile. Only if chromosomes can pair up evenly, will the new offspring be fertile, and able to pass on these newly combined genes.

For example, if, over a given time, Aphonopelma iodius, and say Aphonopelma chalcodes began to cohabit extensively in an isolated area, then possibly we might see a subspecies, or eventually a new species come from this type of pairing. But a Chilean Rose hair, bred with a Chilean Rose Hair, is always going to be a Chilean Rose Hair. If we could live for another 200 years, and were still breeding offspring of some of the first CRH's ever, the species would STILL be that of a Chilean Rose Hair. The species would not change.

That said, there MAY be many new species created, accidentally by hobby breeders, if absolute certainty is not known on a given breeding Tarantula, and hybridizing occurs. MOST of these hybrids will likely be infertile, but those that aren't might likely become the cornerstones for NEW hobby species, indeed. I can't say that this would be a good thing, but it is a possibility.
i have no interest in hybrids they are irresponsible, and a threat to the hobby.
there are enough colorful and amazing species i dont want to see s green bottle rose hair. i still say that T's could possibly evolve to life in a tank, and who knows what that would do to them.
 

Great Basin Ben

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MOST of these hybrids will likely be infertile, but those that aren't might likely become the cornerstones for NEW hobby species, indeed. I can't say that this would be a good thing, but it is a possibility.
Again, I can't say it would be a good thing, but it is a possibility.
 

Bill S

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I think the best chance for a new species, will likely be a result of selective pressures, forcing two already established populations of an Identical Genus into the same ecosystem, thus eventually giving them the opportunity for successful copulation. However, mere successful copulation doesn't prohibit the offspring from being sterile. Only if chromosomes can pair up evenly, will the new offspring be fertile, and able to pass on these newly combined genes.
Evolution generally goes in the other direction - one species having its populations separated geologically or geographically, with different selective pressures on the different populations. That's why captive populations can change so much more quickly - isolated breeding populations with non-natural selective pressures placed upon them.

When you deal with plants or animals with high reproductive rates, this allows for rapid change. Look at what's happened in the reptile hobby in the past 20 years - and those are animals with much lower reproductive rates than most tarantulas.
 

Kirk

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Evolution generally goes in the other direction - one species having its populations separated geologically or geographically, with different selective pressures on the different populations. That's why captive populations can change so much more quickly - isolated breeding populations with non-natural selective pressures placed upon them.
Bottlenecks during allopatry also allow for genetic drift to play an important role in divergence.
 

pato_chacoana

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Indeed, good inputs from Bill S and Kirk. Also, take into consideration that the artificial selection done along the years can make changes that could not be seen to our eyes...I mean, that maybe physically they may look exactly like they used to be in the wild and nevertheless changed a lot (characteristics such as behavior for example)... unless an intentional artificial selection breeding is done to perpetuate an specific feature...
 

KingOfRats

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so ive been immersing myself into the world of keeping t's and one thought has been stuck so ill share it. if we take ts and put them in tanks and breed them to the point where we doint bring them in from the wild anymore, could they adapt to tank living? could they become new species over time? i mean we turned dogs from wolves and relatives right? and most invertebrates heave a faster evolution because of the faster generations. so in 200 years your rosie and the rosie you see on your vacation could be different on a huge scale, maybe enough to say a differant species right?
It's a very interesting thought, but also keep in consideration that before the domestication of dogs and cats, there were wild dogs and cats identical to what we see it captivity. It's more the social patterns, diets and longevity that have evolved. Very true all of these things could over time change the physical attributes of the animal to a point where it is seemingly another species, this hasn't happened yet. I'd say we are defiantly heading down that route now with inverts though. I've seen a forum on this very website of a gentleman who has kept his Solpugids alive several years so far through allowing the animal to hibernate. Now Solpugids in the wild are a seasonal insect, no different then Mantids or box elders. How is it that this could happen? Who knows... but we are defiantly speeding along the process of evolution there.
 

Bill S

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Also, take into consideration that the artificial selection done along the years can make changes that could not be seen to our eyes...I mean, that maybe physically they may look exactly like they used to be in the wild and nevertheless changed a lot (characteristics such as behavior for example)...
Actually, these types of changes are almost inevitable. The tarantulas you raise in captivity, over a few generations, will be selected for living on crickets/roaches, breeding under captive conditions, being hardy at common household temperatures and humidity levels.
 

Bill S

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... but also keep in consideration that before the domestication of dogs and cats, there were wild dogs and cats identical to what we see it captivity.
Ummm..... Not true at all. The wild ancestor of the modern dog is the wolf. There were never any wild equivalents of cocker spaniels, chihuahuas, dalmations, or any other such breeds. The changes that came with domestication included a LOT of morphological changes, to say nothing of neotony. For cats there is a wild European species that resembles the modern domestic cat - might even be the ancestor of the domestic cat (I'm not much into cats, so I don't know much about the ancestry). But there were no wild equivalents of siamese cats, etc.
 

pato_chacoana

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Actually, these types of changes are almost inevitable. The tarantulas you raise in captivity, over a few generations, will be selected for living on crickets/roaches, breeding under captive conditions, being hardy at common household temperatures and humidity levels.
Yes of course, changes will always occur...evolution can't be stopped, especially if we are talking about sexual reproductive organisms! lol
 

MadTitan

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so ive been immersing myself into the world of keeping t's and one thought has been stuck so ill share it. if we take ts and put them in tanks and breed them to the point where we doint bring them in from the wild anymore, could they adapt to tank living? could they become new species over time? i mean we turned dogs from wolves and relatives right? and most invertebrates heave a faster evolution because of the faster generations. so in 200 years your rosie and the rosie you see on your vacation could be different on a huge scale, maybe enough to say a differant species right?
Jimip, are you asking specifically about the possibility of domestication, or more generally about the evolutionary changes that might result from keeping tarantulas in captivity?
 
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