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Venom

Arachnoprince
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That is a Cheiracanthium inclusum, yellow sac spider. Nasty bugs!
 

cacoseraph

ArachnoGod
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not nasty! nice. pretty.

i have my doubts about toxicity. i will induce my local species (mildei or inclusum) to bite me next time i catch one =P
 

David_F

Arachnoprince
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That is a Cheiracanthium inclusum, yellow sac spider. Nasty bugs!
Hey Venom!

Long time since we went rounds on this subject. LOL

What is it about spider that can put a bad bite on a person that scares you so bad? Once again (remember the times I'd argue against you're anti-recluse posts? :D), there are probably more nasty dog bites per year than...we'll go with sac spiders this time...there are bad spider bites and I'd bet even people who don't have dogs have run-ins with spiders at least a couple times per year.

So...just because a spider can cause a nasty necrotic wound doesn't mean the spider is, in itself, nasty. Then again, I found one in my bathroom the other day and killed it on the spot. Maybe I suffer the same delusion as you. {D

C. inclusum are actually really pretty spiders. Too bad they're so darn small.
 

Venom

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Hey Venom!

Long time since we went rounds on this subject. LOL
Yeah...ah the good ole' days.:D lol. There is little I enjoy more on this forum than a good venomous discussion--venomous spiders I mean, not venomous posts. :rolleyes:

What is it about spider that can put a bad bite on a person that scares you so bad?
The fact that it can damage me or cause me significant pain. Seems self explanatory to me...


Once again (remember the times I'd argue against you're anti-recluse posts? :D), there are probably more nasty dog bites per year than...we'll go with sac spiders this time...there are bad spider bites and I'd bet even people who don't have dogs have run-ins with spiders at least a couple times per year.
That's an assumption! We don't know how many sac spider bites occur in a year, because many of them are either not reported ( just like many widow bites go unreported, as well as venomous snake bites ), and because the spider is not widely known/ recognized, many people, even doctors, blame on other causes what are actually Cheiracanthium bites! Yes, there are still a lot of dog bites--but not all dogs are biters, many if not most are good pets and tame in temperament. There are no tame sac spiders--it isn't just a handful, or even a half of the population that is defensive: all sac spiders are highly defensive and more prone to biting than any other North American venomous spider ( as I believe Darwin Vest's site says ). Plus, all sac spiders are venomous, not just a selection. So to compare a spider that is always venomous and always defensive to a mammal that is usually tame and only occasionally vicious, really isn't accurate. The spiders IS, in and of itself, more prone to causing harm than dogs are on average.

The number of sac bites is also somewhat irrelevant. There are only a handful of bites known from Sicarius spiders, but we know they are highly virulent and deadly venomous. Are dogs more dangerous than Sicariids, due to a greater number bitings? That would be like saying that Latros are more dangerous than King cobras, because latros live in populated areas and the K. cobra lives in the boonies. What I'm saying is that we must judge the danger of a creature based solely on that creature's characteristics, NOT on where it lives or how likely you are to encounter one. A cobra in the bush is still more dangerous, in and of itself, than a latro in your toilet. You might be in more immediate danger from the latro, but the cobra still has the more dangerous qualities/ characteristics, and is therefore the more dangerous organism.

I'm not saying that sac spiders are more dangerous than a vicious dog--dogs are capable of causing much worse damage. What I AM saying, or trying to, is that the sac spider IS a harmful organism, regardless of how many or few bites we have on record. The temperament is proven to be defensive, and the venom is proven to be toxic, and the bite definitely can contain enough venom to cause significant harmful effects.


So...just because a spider can cause a nasty necrotic wound doesn't mean the spider is, in itself, nasty.
Um...yes it does! Anything that can and probably will do me harm is dangerous, and danger is bad. SO, dangerous spider = bad spider to have around. Nasty is as nasty does.

I agree that sac spiders are pretty, and interesting, and enjoyable to keep as captives ( I have had 11 of them ! ), but they are NOT a nice spider any more than an A. atrax is a "nice" spider, or an alligator snapper is a "nice" turtle--they're cantankerous, harmful beasties! The sac spider is nowhere near as dangerous, bit it still packs a bad bite, and has no problem delivering one to whoever ticks it off. In my books, that makes for a "nasty" spider, albeit a beautiful one.

C. inclusum are actually really pretty spiders. Too bad they're so darn small.
Well, yes and no. If they were larger, they'd be much more enjoyable to keep, which would be fun. But it would also make them much more dangerous. But, if they were more harmful, they'd be better understood, and people like YOU would have no problem admitting they are harmful, lol. ;P So I guess it would be a trade-off--even nastier spider, but at least it would get some respect ;P :rolleyes:

As always, a pleasure arguing with you :)
 

buthus

Arachnoprince
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They seem to be somewhat seasonal...at least to be able to readily find them. I've had them around me for years and before I knew that they MIGHT cause a problematic bite, I picked them up all the time. I still do, but with more "back of my mind" caution. Never been bitten.
IMHO the "scaryness" of this specie has been GREATLY over-exaggerated. :embarrassed: ;)
 

8+)

Arachnolord
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For both the Brown Recluse and the Yellow Sac Spider, I've seen it written more than once that the bites often cause no reaction at all. Has this been verified at all? I know for sure that severity varies greatly for whatever reason: individual reactions to venom, variance in toxicity from spider to spider, amount of venom injected (dry bites?).
 

cacoseraph

ArachnoGod
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They seem to be somewhat seasonal...at least to be able to readily find them. I've had them around me for years and before I knew that they MIGHT cause a problematic bite, I picked them up all the time. I still do, but with more "back of my mind" caution. Never been bitten.
IMHO the "scaryness" of this specie has been GREATLY over-exaggerated. :embarrassed: ;)
i play with them all the time, when i find them. never been bit out of say... 20 +/- 5 specimens played with. hell, the first one i kept as a pet was named Seven Yellow Lightning Bolts... because i ripped one of his legs off. no bite from that :)

the only time i was at all worried about one was when it made a nest in my A. seemani tank... and then laid an eggsac. i was very slightly concerned for my seemani so i removed the eggsac and let it hatch in my room, iirc =P
 

Venom

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Come on.. we all know that even defensive spiders need certain stimuli/ conditions to bite. People have managed to handle, without incident, some very defensive species, but they didn't then claim the spider would never bite them, or that the spider isn't defensive. I for one have been bitten by C.inclusum just by free handling it. I had a teeny tiny specimen wandering around on my hand, and it looked a bit anemic, so I offered it a water droplet to drink. I placed the drip ahead of it, and directed the spider towards the water droplet. It took a sip, and promptly bit me, the little ingrate! I was not doing much to agitate it, but it still felt threatened and nipped me.

Check out this quote from arachnologist Darwin Vest's site, ( hobospider.org )

"They are very prone to bite defensively (more so than any other significantly venomous U.S. spider)."

And he goes on to say that: "It is likely that many U.S. cases of necrotic arachnidism ascribed to the brown recluse spider outside of its natural range, are actually yellow sac spider bites."

Try immobilizing or restraining one some time. Just cupping one in your hand would likely be enough. They are indeed biters!
 

8+)

Arachnolord
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I had a teeny tiny specimen wandering around on my hand, and it looked a bit anemic, so I offered it a water droplet to drink. I placed the drip ahead of it, and directed the spider towards the water droplet. It took a sip, and promptly bit me, the little ingrate! I was not doing much to agitate it, but it still felt threatened and nipped me.
Very interesting! Buthus does this sound familiar? Somehow I don't think it felt threatened, must something else at work here...

BTW, what reaction did you have to the bite?
 

Taceas

Arachnolord
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cacoseraph said:
hell, the first one i kept as a pet was named Seven Yellow Lightning Bolts... because i ripped one of his legs off. no bite from that
You need to warn people before posting stuff like that, I darn near spit my Mountain Dew out from laughing so hard! {D

So Venom, since you're so anti-anything that is defensive and can give you nasty bite, how many tarantulas/scorps/centipedes with significant venom do you own? ;)

The Yellow Sac Spider is indeed a very pretty spider, but they're still something I would rather not have around my home. And knock on wood, I've never seen one in real life that I know of.
 

buthus

Arachnoprince
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Very interesting! Buthus does this sound familiar? Somehow I don't think it felt threatened, must something else at work here...

BTW, what reaction did you have to the bite?
Yep...strange deal.
I have observed many a spider (esp widows) restart on old carcasses after a good misting. Food softens up. Probably has nothing to do with this, but maybe a "need to feed" reaction after hydration.
 

Venom

Arachnoprince
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So Venom, since you're so anti-anything that is defensive and can give you nasty bite, how many tarantulas/scorps/centipedes with significant venom do you own?
It's not that I'm against them, or against people keeping them, I just am irked when I see the reality of a toxic species downplayed. I have had 11 yellow sacs--I enjoy keeping them, and will keep having them for as long as I can find them. I'm not anti-defensive/ toxic spiders, I'm anti-pooh-poohing defensive/ toxic spiders. The most dangerous part of a hot species is a lax / careless / "it's not that bad" aproach by the keeper to the animal. I just think we should stop telling ourselves that recluses, sacs, etc. "aren't that bad," and get on with the business of a properly cautious treatment of them. People who are told that "species X" is "really more or less harmless," when it isn't, will not be as carefulwith that animal as the species truly warrants...and that is dangerous for both the individual and the hobby.

Granted, C.inclusum isn't the doomsday species, but the attitude has been applied to other, much hotter species, and that troubles me.

So please, don't think I'm against people keeping Andros, Loxos etc., I just want people to be honest about their potential, and be careful with them!
 

8+)

Arachnolord
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Yep...strange deal.
I have observed many a spider (esp widows) restart on old carcasses after a good misting. Food softens up. Probably has nothing to do with this, but maybe a "need to feed" reaction after hydration.
Or perhaps the water brings the taste to their mouth and stimulates them to try it out?
 
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