I think she’s a iheringi

Mslinger

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I purchased this tarantula under the name black woolly, listed scientific name was pulchra.
I don’t believe she’s a pulchra, behaviorally acts like a G iheringi.
Fun little beast, likes to come out when she thinks I’m not looking and clean out her hole (removes dead big parts) and drops them in different locations within tank. Fast/feisty/hungry
 

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Liquifin

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Either a G. inheringi or G. actaeon. Those two are very similar and quite hard to tell apart, but it certainly is not a G. pulchra.
 

Mslinger

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Either a G. inheringi or G. actaeon. Those two are very similar and quite hard to tell apart, but it certainly is not a G. pulchra.
Thanks, ya from what I have read both species can act similar as juveniles. So “impossible” to tell apart at this age?
 

Liquifin

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Thanks, ya from what I have read both species can act similar as juveniles. So “impossible” to tell apart at this age?
Almost impossible to tell apart in general. Even as adults, it's still very tricky to ID them properly.
 

cold blood

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Either a G. inheringi or G. actaeon. Those two are very similar and quite hard to tell apart, but it certainly is not a G. pulchra.
Acteon was my guess as well.... @viper69 looked closely into the differrences between them and inheringi, he can possibly add clarity.
 

Vanessa

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I'm going with Grammostola actaeon. I have females of both, who are almost identical in size, and iheringi has that tell-tale swirl on their abdomens that this one seems to lack.
Grammostola iheringi Juvenile Female.
DSC04596-2.jpg

Grammostola actaeon Juvenile Female.
DSC06542-2.jpg
 

The Grym Reaper

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Brazilian Woolly Black is the common name for G. actaeon

Almost impossible to tell apart in general. Even as adults, it's still very tricky to ID them properly.
Na, adult actaeon lose the bright red on the abdomen, iheringi keep it.
 

AphonopelmaTX

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According to the taxonomic literature, Grammostola iheringii has a very distinct spermatheca in which the two receptacles are very wide at the base and curve inward toward each other. Grammostola actaeon have the usual Grammostola spermatheca where the receptacles are mostly straight and the same width from base to top.

I don't have either of these species so I can't say for sure if the distinct spermatheca as described is present in pet trade G. iheringii. Maybe someone has a molt from a sub adult or adult of either species can share some pictures.

For illustrations, see the following papers.

Schiapelli, R. D. & Gerschman de P., B. S. (1962a). Estudio de seis mudas de un ejemplar f del género Grammostola Simon, 1892 (Araneae: Theraphosidae). Physis, Revista de la Sociedad Argentina de Ciencias Naturales (C) 23: 11-13.

Schiapelli, R. D. & Gerschman de P., B. S. (1962b). Importancia de las espermatecas en la sistemática de las arañas del suborden Mygalomorphae (Araneae). Physis, Revista de la Sociedad Argentina de Ciencias Naturales (C) 23: 69-75.
 
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dangerforceidle

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In addition, from the following:

Mello-Leitão, C. F. de (1921a). On the genus Grammostola, Simon. Annals and Magazine of Natural History (9) 7: 293-305

G. actaeon is described as having "scopula on protarsus i. covering more than half the lower side of the segment," whereas G. iheringi "scopula on protarsus i. covering less than half the lower side of the segment." In addition, the cephalothorax proportions will differ between the two species, with G. actaeon described as having a cephalothorax as wide as it is long, and G. iheringi longer than it is wide, and also much smaller than the combined lengths of patella and tibia of legs i and iv. In G. iheringi, leg iv should also be longer than leg i, which is another difference as G. actaeon doesn't have this proportion.

Those notes may be out of date, but they were distinguishing characters at that time.

Once you get a moult, you should be able to compare the spermatheca shape against the diagrams in the papers provided by AphonopelmaTX.
 

The Grym Reaper

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I don't have either of these species so I can't say for sure if the distinct spermatheca as described is present in pet trade G. iheringii. Maybe someone has a molt from a sub adult or adult of either species can share some pictures.
Not an adult (she was around 4", and not the best pic as it was ripped from my IG), but this is my girl's last moult.

G. iheringi spermathecae.jpg
 

AphonopelmaTX

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Not an adult (she was around 4", and not the best pic as it was ripped from my IG), but this is my girl's last moult.

View attachment 302665
A 4 inch leg span is adult enough to where the anatomy can be used for identification. Comparing your spermatheca picture with the illustrations in the papers I referenced, your tarantula would be Grammostola actaeon. I won't be confident to confirm that ID 100% until I see the spermatheca of the other red rump Grammostola species to know if they have the curved receptacles.

I'm really hoping @VanessaS saves the molts of both of hers and posts some pictures of the spermatheca. :)
 

Vanessa

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I'm really hoping @VanessaS saves the molts of both of hers and posts some pictures of the spermatheca. :)
I save them all!! Where possible, anyway.
Wasn't there controversy over the fact that Grammostola iheringi in the hobby today is not the one that was described, though? My understanding was that Grammostola grossa in the hobby is what was originally described as Grammostola iheringi. Therefore, making the spermathecae in the original papers for a totally different tarantula?
Luckily, I have 4" females of actaeon, iheringi and grossa, being the Grammostola groupie that I am. I can't remember what the condition of their exuvia was, but I can have a look for them if you'd like.
 
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AphonopelmaTX

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I save them all!! Where possible, anyway.
Wasn't there controversy over the fact that Grammostola iheringi in the hobby today is not the one that was described, though? My understand was that Grammostola grossa in the hobby is what was originally described as Grammostola iheringi. Therefore, making the spermathecae in the original papers for a totally different tarantula?
Luckily, I have 4" females of actaeon, iheringi and grossa, being the Grammostola groupie that I am. I can't remember what the condition of their exuvia was, but I can have a look for them if you'd like.
I haven't heard of the controversy you speak of, so I can't comment on any of it. All I can go by are the illustrations in the taxonomic papers. Since the original descriptions and subsequent papers on all three of those species are in languages I can't understand (German, Portuguese, and Spanish), I may very well be missing something.

If you have molts of females of all three species, then please please please look for them and photograph the spermatheca if possible. I am dying to know if any of them have the curved spermathecal receptacles. :anxious:
 

Vanessa

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If you have molts of females of all three species, then please please please look for them and photograph the spermatheca if possible. I am dying to know if any of them have the curved spermathecal receptacles. :anxious:
All are 3.5" and I did the best I could with my trusty cheap Amazon microscope. They're old, so they're pretty dried up.

Grammostola actaeon
salem2-2-2.jpg

Grammostola iheringi
Morgan2-2.jpg

Grammostola grossa
jinx4-2.jpg


s6.jpg
s5.jpg
 
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AphonopelmaTX

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All are 3.5" and I did the best I could with my trusty cheap Amazon microscope. They're old, so they're pretty dried up.

Grammostola actaeon
View attachment 302670

Grammostola iheringi
View attachment 302671

Grammostola grossa
View attachment 302673


View attachment 302674
View attachment 302675
The uterus externus is blocking the view of the spermatheca, but as far as I can tell the picture for G. iheringi doesn't match to what the Schiapelli and Gerschman de P. papers have illustrated, but the picture for G. actaeon matches somewhat since the receptacles are curved. I am at a loss here. The pictures for G. iheringi and G. grossa have the typical Grammostola shape so those in themselves can't be used as diagnostic characters. The illustration sheet provided look like it came from a Gunter Schmidt paper and again the G. iheringi drawing doesn't match the Schiapelli and Gerschman de P. papers. If the illustrations really did come from Gunter Schmidt, then it can't be used to reliably identify anything since his publications were full of misidentifications and used material from the pet trade.

As @dangerforceidle stated, the metatarsal scopulation of leg 1 in may reveal some differences with the quote "scopula on protarsus i. covering more than half the lower side of the segment," whereas G. iheringi "scopula on protarsus i. covering less than half the lower side of the segment." Protarsus = Metatarsus. The carapace length and width comparisons along with the leg segment measurements/ comparisons can't be used as diagnostic characters since that has been shown time and time again to vary among individuals within the same species.

I guess this will remain a mystery. Thanks for providing the pictures though. It has been insightful.
 

dangerforceidle

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The carapace length and width comparisons along with the leg segment measurements/ comparisons can't be used as diagnostic characters since that has been shown time and time again to vary among individuals within the same species.
I agree, I had a lot of difficulty discerning these characters among photo examples. The paper is also very old, so I'm sure some of the descriptions will end up inaccurate. The differences in scopulae should be reasonably diagnostic, however, as they are still used in taxonomic classifications as far as I can tell. The only issue is the language is kind of vague with "greater than half" and "less than half." How narrow a margin are we talking about? Visually those can both appear to be "half" without measuring.
 
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Vanessa

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The uterus externus is blocking the view of the spermatheca
I will rig something to backlight them.

@AphonopelmaTX they both look pretty much the same to me. Maybe any differences will become more obvious when they get larger.

actaeon
salem07-2-2.jpg

iheringi
morgan03-2.jpg
 
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Mslinger

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Almost impossible to tell apart in general. Even as adults, it's still very tricky to ID them properly.
Oh wow, I read that adult acetea
Almost impossible to tell apart in general. Even as adults, it's still very tricky to ID them properly.
Wow I read that adult Actaeon lose the read coloration as adults and have more of a sedative behavior aposed to iheringi.

According to the taxonomic literature, Grammostola iheringii has a very distinct spermatheca in which the two receptacles are very wide at the base and curve inward toward each other. Grammostola actaeon have the usual Grammostola spermatheca where the receptacles are mostly straight and the same width from base to top.

I don't have either of these species so I can't say for sure if the distinct spermatheca as described is present in pet trade G. iheringii. Maybe someone has a molt from a sub adult or adult of either species can share some pictures.

For illustrations, see the following papers.

Schiapelli, R. D. & Gerschman de P., B. S. (1962a). Estudio de seis mudas de un ejemplar f del género Grammostola Simon, 1892 (Araneae: Theraphosidae). Physis, Revista de la Sociedad Argentina de Ciencias Naturales (C) 23: 11-13.

Schiapelli, R. D. & Gerschman de P., B. S. (1962b). Importancia de las espermatecas en la sistemática de las arañas del suborden Mygalomorphae (Araneae). Physis, Revista de la Sociedad Argentina de Ciencias Naturales (C) 23: 69-75.
Wow the taxonomy gets deep here, I’m not sure if you explained the swirl you speak of. I couldn’t visually see a diff in the pic you posted.

Acteon was my guess as well.... @viper69 looked closely into the differrences between them and inheringi, he can possibly add clarity.
I examined but discarded the her last molt, I regret not taking any pictures. I’ll take more pics of her as soon as I get the chance.

In addition, from the following:

Mello-Leitão, C. F. de (1921a). On the genus Grammostola, Simon. Annals and Magazine of Natural History (9) 7: 293-305

G. actaeon is described as having "scopula on protarsus i. covering more than half the lower side of the segment," whereas G. iheringi "scopula on protarsus i. covering less than half the lower side of the segment." In addition, the cephalothorax proportions will differ between the two species, with G. actaeon described as having a cephalothorax as wide as it is long, and G. iheringi longer than it is wide, and also much smaller than the combined lengths of patella and tibia of legs i and iv. In G. iheringi, leg iv should also be longer than leg i, which is another difference as G. actaeon doesn't have this proportion.

Those notes may be out of date, but they were distinguishing characters at that time.

Once you get a moult, you should be able to compare the spermatheca shape against the diagrams in the papers provided by AphonopelmaTX.
I really appreciate everyone’s input here, there is so much to learn about these fantastic animals.

I will rig something to backlight them.

@AphonopelmaTX they both look pretty much the same to me. Maybe any differences will become more obvious when they get larger.

actaeon
View attachment 302688

iheringi
View attachment 302689
I want to say the bottom pic looks like what I saw on her molt. Hard to say now.

I examined but discarded the her last molt, I regret not taking any pictures. I’ll take more pics of her as soon as I get the chance.


I really appreciate everyone’s input here, there is so much to learn about these fantastic animals.


I want to say the bottom pic looks like what I saw on her molt. Hard to say now.
What about behavior? Is there anything that differs that could give a indication?
 
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Vanessa

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What about behavior? Is there anything that differs that could give a indication?
No. The species are similar in temperament and they are all individuals. All three of mine - actaeon, iheringi and grossa - have much the same temperament at this point... all are skittish and fairly fast.
 
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