Hysterocrates hercules Research

[Paul Osullivan]

To be honest, if a spider has these Four VERY UNIQUE/ KEY features (attatched) that's described only to H. HERCULES by Pocock and are NOT seen and described for any other Hysterocrates. You have to think this must be it, or at least a close relative to it and indeed the type specimen? The chances of a spider having these features on top of all the others described like mine (and possibly a few others I have seen) and not for it to be it is near impossible. It should be labled at the very least - H. Hercules (regional variation) or similar as it most closely matches this description than to the others (e.g gigas, crassipes etc).

There are also other sources that have H. Hercules pictures in the "Common Hysterocrates features" file on this shared folder and the file "key Hercules features" explains more unique features to H. Hercules.. thanks I hope you find this interesting ..

Hercules/

Shared via MobiDrive

mobidrive.com

Below the four "key features" attachments are different "hercules" from different sources and I would have to agree for them all to be H. Hercules from the unique features seen.. Surely one or all of these had to be labelled "hercules" from a knowledgable expert and maybe was compared to the type specimen and would be "IT". Though with the many unique features of H. Hercules, It didn't need to be compared, as the many unique features were present on the same spider and it was then a case of finding out where it came from and agreeing that all of Pocock's H. Hercules descriptive features being present on the same spider..

Hey all, I have finished prity much everything on the online drive. Including new files "Korean Hysterocrates" and "Whitey's herc compared to laticeps" this goes through in detail some common "hercules" look alikes and how to see the differences in them.

Please take a good look through those and familiarise with all the details. This will make the "Please Read" files easier to grasp.

I hope you will take the time to look through all of it and I will look forward to anything you may want to add or ask about the research.

Thanks,

Paul O'Sullivan

 

[Paul Osullivan]

Hey all,

I have finished prity much everything on the online drive. Including new files "Korean Hysterocrates" and "Whitey's herc compared to laticeps" this goes through in detail some common "hercules" look alikes and how to see the differences in them.

Please take a good look through those and familiarise with all the details. This will make the "Please Read" files easier to grasp.

I hope you will take the time to look through all of it and I will look forward to anything you may want to add or ask about the research.

Thanks,

I apologize for using anyones material in the research. I hope you can forgive me in the common goal of good research. Thanks.

Paul O'Sullivan

 

[DaveM]

Thank you for posting this info, especially for the documents in the folder you shared. This effort has seemed to be like searching for a lost city of gold.
I hope some taxonomists can comment, or that we can see more expeditions.

 

[Paul Osullivan]

Thank you for posting this info, especially for the documents in the folder you shared. This effort has seemed to be like searching for a lost city of gold.
I hope some taxonomists can comment, or that we can see more expeditions.

Awsome! Thanks Dave!

I really hope you enjoyed looking at them. Yes it has been a search for lost gold and unravelling a legendary mystery that seems to have gone on for so long and everyone it seems all not knowing this from that, 'this is a herc', 'thats a herc', 'they're not in the hobby', 'the genus is a mess'!! Ohhhh man I had to.. take Pockocks original description and brush it off and say look.. FACTS!!!

I have gone though everything I think have needed to. bar direct comparison to the specimen (I'm planning to visit next year), although this is now innaccurate to compare too, as you can see in the research. It's clear that the real living H.hercules is in Whitey's collection, after mis-identification and its habitat being to dangerous to visit.. I'm sure they are much more widespread than believed. But what an impressive beast it is he has and it even looks fitting of that name! I also have the same species, but much smaller and even they match completely to Pococks description, even given the smaller size as the ratios still hold between the measurements, given it was a female and no "legginess" happened on the maturing moult.

I appreciate you taking the time to look through it and hope you found it interesting. I have updated the "Herc scep" file this evening if you wanted to read that for more. I have contacted all the big guns of the hobbey to look at it all. I don't mean to say it was mis-identified, it's just my hunch that mine and whitey's specimens are H. hercules and I have prity much proved that it is, through 2 years of research, hard work and evidence in the files. There may have been something I have mised, but I don't think I have. <edit>

Cheers, Paul..

 

[Paul Osullivan]

 

[Paul Osullivan]

 

[Paul Osullivan]

 

[Comatose]

Thank you for all of this - incredibly helpful stuff that I look forward to reading through.

You may want to track down pictures of H. scepticus as they’re apparently as similar as anything gets to hercules. IIRC the carapace is almost round.

 

[Paul Osullivan]

Ah thanks, I'm glad you find this interesting too! I hope to get the research books printed so hopefully could send them to you! They will be easier to read I'm sure.

Oh yea I think there's only a few pictures of H.Scepticus one I think looks like H. Laticeps. I have drawn those out in the pics above and yea this is true, H. Scepticus has also a huge carapace, just a little narrower than H. Hercules and a very long leg 4.

I have paired these species (brother to sister) as advised by an arachnologist, so hopefully could get some to you, some how if successful..

 

[ooya]

Paul Osullivan, I saw your article.
I've been researching hysterocrates in Japan for a long time and this article is very nice and agrees with what I think!
And I succeeded in breeding this seemingly correct Hysterocrates hercules species!
Your article is incredible and can be described as a revolution in the previously uncollected hysterocrates spiders!

I will refer to my Hysterocrates hercules.
1: Hy. Hercules female
2: Hy. Hercules female & egg
3: Hy. Hercules male
4: Hy. Hercules male leg span
5: Hy. Hercules male genital
.

 

[Edan bandoot]

Makes me wonder how hybridized Hysterocrates are here in NA

 

[l4nsky]

Makes me wonder how hybridized Hysterocrates are here in NA

Oh, you mean "hobby forms"?

 

[Ceymann]

I was under the impression that H. Hercules pretty much doesn't exist in the hobby as the area where the reside has been too politically unstable/ dangerous for anyone to be able to collect any broodstock for either breeding or sale.


This is an excellent thread for those looking to brush up on the relationship between morphology and taxonomic defining features though. Great work !

 

[Paul Osullivan]

Hi, Ooya. Thanks for your interest in my research! I'm really pleased you have managed to successfully breed your spiders and a very sizable male you have! Do you know where your spiders were collected?

Also, can you send me as many pictures as you have of your spiders as I would like to try to visually confirm your species as H. hercules or possibly H. laticeps? Or what I believe them to be anyhow as I haven't got the 'official' word although I will be sending my research soon.

The two species are very difficult to tell apart, but there are some very slight differences. Some more pictures would be good to build a more accurate picture. I'm nearing completion of my research and I will send you a copy of my book once printed <edit>!

Thanks my friend,

Hi Edan, this seems to be a question that appears often lol. I have been doing some writing on this. It's not backed up by facts, as in I haven't been to Africa and seen all the different species in all their locations. I have seen thousands of pictures of wild caught and hobby Hysterocrates and they all seem to bear resemblance to one of three species >

Gigas
Crassipes
Laticeps

Despite them being collected from all different locations to the original specimens and may have small differences, but on the whole they do look to bear much resemblance to either of these three species. If anyone can add or take away anything from what I have wrote, that would be appreciated I'm an amateur, but trying to piece the jigsaw together

I was under the impression that H. Hercules pretty much doesn't exist in the hobby as the area where the reside has been too politically unstable/ dangerous for anyone to be able to collect any broodstock for either breeding or sale.


This is an excellent thread for those looking to brush up on the relationship between morphology and taxonomic defining features though. Great work !

Thanks for your support Ceymann!

Yea definitely, this species seems very rare.. I obtained some spiderlings in a plant from what I now believe to be central or northern Nigeria and then studied them and it was a very interesting to see all the features match up to them. I hope to be visiting the holotype soon to clarify a few bits then send to the B.t.s. Fingers Crossed!!

 

[Edan bandoot]

Hi Edan, this seems to be a question that appears often lol. I have been doing some writing on this. It's not backed up by facts, as in I haven't been to Africa and seen all the different species in all their locations. I have seen thousands of pictures of wild caught and hobby Hysterocrates and they all seem to bear resemblance to one of three species >

Gigas
Crassipes
Laticeps

Despite them being collected from all different locations to the original specimens and may have small differences, but on the whole they do look to bear much resemblance to either of these three species. If anyone can add or take away anything from what I have wrote, that would be appreciated I'm an amateur, but trying to piece the jigsaw together

I don't think you can say for sure if something has been hybridized or not based off of morphology alone.

Whether they would produce offspring or not I'm unsure of, and I don't want to be the one to find out lol

 

[ooya]

Thank you Paul Osullivan
It's like a dream to be able to have a conversation with you in this way.
I'm afraid I'm not good at English.
Are you able to translate the sentence correctly?
In Japan, the hobby of raising tarantulas is quite minor, and few people have a conversation with each other!
That's why wild spiders are still imported, so I got the true Hysterocrates hercules!

My H. hercules was imported by Togolese flight.
I didn't know what kind of Hysterocrates actually lived in Togo, so I asked the local people in detail.
Then, they said that the ones collected from Nigeria to Cameroon were accumulated instead of the ones collected in Togo.
In fact, it contained a lot of what seems to be Cameroon's Hysterocrates (gigas, crassipes).

As you said, I have prepared a lot of pictures of my Hysterocrates hercules.
I hope it helps.

I've seen it for a long time and found out, so I'd like to write it.
H. hercules and H. laticeps.
First of all, there is an overwhelming difference in appearance between these two animals.
Look at the size of the male.
H. laticeps are only 15 cm in size and 13 cm in small size.
On the other hand, males of H. hercules have an average size of 17 cm or more.
Also, H. laticeps narrows toward the fangs, as opposed to the large circular H. hercules.

And there is a big difference even before maturity.
In addition to the above, H. laticeps has a light brown body color, while H. hercules has a dark brown to black body color.
Also, H. hercules loses the light brown accents on the legs as they grow, but H. laticeps does not.
This is a discriminant method that also applies to females, where H. laticeps females are medium-sized spiders that do not exceed 6 cm in length, whereas H. hercules females exceed 7 cm in length.

1.H. laticeps male
2. H. hercules male
3. H. hercules male
4.H. laticeps male
5.H. laticeps male
6.H. hercules male

 

[Paul Osullivan]

I don't think you can say for sure if something has been hybridized or not based off of morphology alone.

Whether they would produce offspring or not I'm unsure of, and I don't want to be the one to find out lol

Hmm, you have a good point. I guess it depends on what it's being compared too and if there are any differences. It's always good to start from a fresh sack and inform the buyers of the species and locale.

Yea, it's interesting, I think in pamphobeteus species the female senses through the males pheromones if the male is a different species and will eat him. Although my Hysterocrates females still drums to a different Hysterocrates mature male. I have a feeling though the eggs won't be fertile if it's a species mis-match, but I don't know for certain.

View attachment 390908 View attachment 390910 View attachment 390914 View attachment 390915 View attachment 390916 View attachment 390917 I've seen it for a long time and found out, so I'd like to write it.
H. hercules and H. laticeps.
First of all, there is an overwhelming difference in appearance between these two animals.
Look at the size of the male.
H. laticeps are only 15 cm in size and 13 cm in small size.
On the other hand, males of H. hercules have an average size of 17 cm or more.
Also, H. laticeps narrows toward the fangs, as opposed to the large circular H. hercules.

And there is a big difference even before maturity.
In addition to the above, H. laticeps has a light brown body color, while H. hercules has a dark brown to black body color.
Also, H. hercules loses the light brown accents on the legs as they grow, but H. laticeps does not.
This is a discriminant method that also applies to females, where H. laticeps females are medium-sized spiders that do not exceed 6 cm in length, whereas H. hercules females exceed 7 cm in length.

1.H. laticeps male
2. H. hercules male
3. H. hercules male
4.H. laticeps male
5.H. laticeps male
6.H. hercules male

Haha thats awsome! I'm only an amateur researcher with no qualifications, but it's nice you have such enthusiasm for these spiders! Your English seems very good by the way. It's always interesting to see where certain spiders were found to build a picture of the places / areas where they likely live.

That's interesting that your spiders are brought from togo but found in Nigeria or Cameroon. It seems laticeps is found along the southern areas as far as Benin and hercules is found in more central, northern Nigeria and possibly southern Niger. Although this is all based on a few spiders and on where they were found, but this seems likely to be the case.

It's always tricky to try to identify from pictures, especially with coloration at each stage. Would you happen to have a picture of your female before she molted? And a few pictures of her from her from further away. I can't see the foveal groove clearly after a molt as this would be a good indicator too..

Prehaps if you like to send me a exuvia/molt/shed and I can have a closer look too..

 

[ooya]

Hello! friends!
I'm glad you can say that.
I also tried to get a lot of information, but there is no such thing as a bulletin board here in my country.

I will put a characteristic photo of the molting shell.
It's a little difficult to understand, but the fact that the right side of the genitals is large is a characteristic of H. hercules.

 

[Paul Osullivan]

Hello! friends!
I'm glad you can say that.
I also tried to get a lot of information, but there is no such thing as a bulletin board here in my country.

I will put a characteristic photo of the molting shell.
It's a little difficult to understand, but the fact that the right side of the genitals is large is a characteristic of H. hercules.

Hi, thanks for posting those! I have included some comparison pictures..

The right side of the genitals? Lol. Ok I understand what you mean from andrews drawing, but I would have thought the spermathecae would be symmetrical on the Holotype, but I could be wrong, or prehaps he drew those to compare shape and detail from two angles.

I'm starting to have a feeling you have Hysterocrates Laticeps unfortunately.. The sternum in your picture shows much similarity to this species and the carapace looks a bit shorter in shape.

Here are the two species compared.. you can see that Hysterocrates Laticeps has a larger 3rd pair of sigilum in comparison to the second pair and also the shape is larger. The writing explains in more detail the differences.

All is not lost I can send you some slings if you would like of my 'hercules' species?

Thanks,

 

[ooya]

sorry.
The photo I gave you was another individual.
This is my h. Laticeps…

This is my H. hercules again.
The characteristics of H. hercules are clearly visible.