Hybridization

[YungRasputin]

note: I’m not saying people should try this nor am i an advocate for this, this is purely, 100% speculation and curiosity

has there been any documented cases of either a) cross breeding of tarantula species (in the wild) and or b) the purposeful attempt by humans at tarantula hybridization?

 

[Liquifin]

As much as I hate it, hybrids are more out there in the hobby than we think. There are a lot of misidentification and inexperienced breeders out there that create them. Sometimes it's accidental and other times it's intentional. People who create hybrids will never understand that creating them is basically wiping out the base/original genetic line of the animal. Basically saying, hybrids destroy the species as whatever species we get into the hobby, it will most likely be the end of it. No one is importing WC species of certain species now and with restrictions and government getting involved, there is no guarantee that we'll get more of those species again into the hobby. So hybrids should be stopped to avoid wiping the species out within the hobby.

I know people say stop hybrids thousands to millions of times already, so I'll leave it at that.

 

[Edan bandoot]

Never before heard of, it's the first thread ever made about it.

 

[Tarantuland]

search the forums this topic is discussed in detail many times, it's an unfortunately common issue

 

[Hardus nameous]

I always think of this thread every time this is brought up.

Brachypelma baumgarteni x boehmei “Hybrid Variant Form II”

This is my second mature male hybrid baumgarteni x boehmei that I’ve had in my collection. This dude looks so close to the real species baumgarteni. I figured it’s important to photograph another variant of a hybrid. The last photo is what he looked like before he matured.

arachnoboards.com

Also a few Futurama quotes, but they aren't too relevant here.

 

[AphonopelmaTX]

note: I’m not saying people should try this nor am i an advocate for this, this is purely, 100% speculation and curiosity

has there been any documented cases of either a) cross breeding of tarantula species and or b) the purposeful attempt by humans at tarantula hybridization?

The only documented attempt I know of breeding two species together was in the species description of Haplopelma longipes, von Wirth and Striffler (2005). One of the authors attempted to mate a Cyriopagopus longipes with a Cyriopagopus lividus (both published at the time as Haplopelma longipes and Haplopelma lividum) to test species delimitation. The resulting offspring did not live very long providing additional support that C. longipes was different enough from C. lividus to warrant a new species.

Reference

Wirth, V. von & Striffler, B. F. (2005). Neue Erkenntnisse zur Vogelspinnen -- Unterfamilie Ornithoctoninae, mit Beschreibung von Ornithoctonus aureotibialis sp. n. und Haplopelma longipes sp. n. (Araneae, Theraphosidae). Arthropoda 13(2): 2-27.

 

[YungRasputin]

thanks for the replies so far - they also explain why I’ve been seeing “pure bred” Brachypelmas going around; most unfortunate

to elaborate on question A, i meant in the wild (I’ve edited my OP) - would be curious if any species exist out there that came out of this wild cross-breeding

would also say that before this thread i didn’t even think this would be an issue and would’ve assumed that attempts at such would result in dead males

 

[Arachnid Addicted]

a) cross breeding of tarantula species (in the wild)

As far as I know, there aren't any scientifical article proving natural hybridism on tarantulas in the wild. However, there are a few speculation on that subject that might (or not) be studied in the further years.

b) the purposeful attempt by humans at tarantula hybridization?

Scientifically, Aphonopelma TX provided the info already.
In pet trade, unfortunately, the answer is yes.

 

[viper69]

note: I’m not saying people should try this nor am i an advocate for this, this is purely, 100% speculation and curiosity

has there been any documented cases of either a) cross breeding of tarantula species (in the wild) and or b) the purposeful attempt by humans at tarantula hybridization?

I know of someone that did B. He even posted about it on his website. He’s well known in T hobby.

 

[0311usmc]

I have always been curious if they do it in the wild. Your telling me that say a mature male sperm loaded palps and all T.stirmi walking around and runs into a female T.blondi at burrow entrance, he starts drumming shes into it, bam hybrid! They cant see crap after all its all feeling. Dont just use theraphosas think about avics, and all the other genus's living in close quarters. I can see it happening in the wild often believe it or not. Change my mind!!!!!

 

[KenNet]

What define a species? Isn't one of the core definition that species don't crossbreed?

 

[basin79]

I made this a while ago because of this topic. Not to you OP but the actual notion.

 

[Tarantuland]

thanks for the replies so far - they also explain why I’ve been seeing “pure bred” Brachypelmas going around; most unfortunate

to elaborate on question A, i meant in the wild (I’ve edited my OP) - would be curious if any species exist out there that came out of this wild cross-breeding

would also say that before this thread i didn’t even think this would be an issue and would’ve assumed that attempts at such would result in dead males

If the species are in the same genus, they can sometimes produce viable offspring. Brachypelma are notoriously hybridized because there are many similar looking species, and they are popular as pets because they’re typically a relatively docile genus (besides boehmei imo lol).

My understanding is that Mexico is doing a cool program, something along the lines of breeding wild caught specimens from a specific locale, importing some out of the country and leaving many of the babies back to the wild. I’ve seen some pictures of the pure blooded vagans and a chalcodes, and there are some visual differences from the “hobby forms”. It’s actually a really great idea in my opinion, and I’d love to see Brazil, Chile, India, and some these places with export bans or endangered species doing something like this

 

[coolnweird]

What define a species? Isn't one of the core definition that species don't crossbreed?

Not necessarily, think about how horse+donkey=mule! Typically crossbreeding produces sterile offspring, or offspring that fail to thrive.

 

[AphonopelmaTX]

What define a species? Isn't one of the core definition that species don't crossbreed?

The last I checked, there are roughly 40 different definitions of what a species is. There are so many because for every definition, an exception can be found somewhere in nature. When it comes to spiders specifically, there are mainly two definitions, or concepts, that are used: the morphological species concept and genetic species concept.

The morphological species concept is used most often in spider taxonomy. It uses differences in the physical characteristics of two spiders to determine what is or isn't a species. When you read the description paper that says something like "species A is different from species B because the spermathecae of species A has a different shape than species B", that is using the morphological species concept, or definition, to delimit species.

The genetic species concept, as the name suggests, uses differences in a gene sequence to define, or delimit, a species. When you read a description paper that states a sequence of the CO1 gene was taken from two different spiders, and lists the differences by way of a percentage, that is using the genetic species concept.

As time goes on, spider taxonomists are using a combination of species definitions, or concepts, to delimit species, or even the higher ranks (genus, subfamily, family, etc.) which is called integrative taxonomy. In more recent tarantula taxonomy research papers, you will see genetics, morphology, and geographic range used which basically means at least three different definitions of a species are being used.

I encourage everyone to look this stuff up and fact check these statements. It is such a huge topic in biology that it can not be adequately covered in a forum post.

 

[YungRasputin]

I have always been curious if they do it in the wild. Your telling me that say a mature male sperm loaded palps and all T.stirmi walking around and runs into a female T.blondi at burrow entrance, he starts drumming shes into it, bam hybrid! They cant see crap after all its all feeling. Dont just use theraphosas think about avics, and all the other genus's living in close quarters. I can see it happening in the wild often believe it or not. Change my mind!!!!!

i think in addition to their sensory organs what would be a factor would be pheromones - i’m speculating but i would assume given the poor eyesight, that this would be one of the primary means of identifying members of the same species for successful procreation

The last I checked, there are roughly 40 different definitions of what a species is. There are so many because for every definition, an exception can be found somewhere in nature. When it comes to spiders specifically, there are mainly two definitions, or concepts, that are used: the morphological species concept and genetic species concept.

The morphological species concept is used most often in spider taxonomy. It uses differences in the physical characteristics of two spiders to determine what is or isn't a species. When you read the description paper that says something like "species A is different from species B because the spermathecae of species A has a different shape than species B", that is using the morphological species concept, or definition, to delimit species.

The genetic species concept, as the name suggests, uses differences in a gene sequence to define, or delimit, a species. When you read a description paper that states a sequence of the CO1 gene was taken from two different spiders, and lists the differences by way of a percentage, that is using the genetic species concept.

As time goes on, spider taxonomists are using a combination of species definitions, or concepts, to delimit species, or even the higher ranks (genus, subfamily, family, etc.) which is called integrative taxonomy. In more recent tarantula taxonomy research papers, you will see genetics, morphology, and geographic range used which basically means at least three different definitions of a species are being used.

I encourage everyone to look this stuff up and fact check these statements. It is such a huge topic in biology that it can not be adequately covered in a forum post.

i’m definitely going to use this post for research points for sure, v informative - ty!

 

[joossa]

Not necessarily, think about how horse+donkey=mule! Typically crossbreeding produces sterile offspring, or offspring that fail to thrive.

It really depends. In the carnivorous plant hobby, all species within the Sarracenia genus can hybridize and produce viable, healthy offspring in the vast, vast majority cases. The offspring also exhibit hybrid vigor and loads of very unique characteristics that are not found in the pure species. Interestingly, many species within the genus are threatened and ex-situ conservation is often done (tagging plants with location info) in case reintroduction and/or habitat restoration is ever done.

Some people in the carnivorous plant hobby help with conservation and some don't. Some, like me, do both. We keep pure species and keep and produce hybrids too. And yes, there are tons of undocumented hybrids that look like the pure species, but at the same time, there are also loads of tagged and documented pure species in the hobby (many with location info too) being sold and traded too. It has been happening for years and the two lines of thought have coexisted successfully and the hobby hasn't burned to cinders.

All of the above can also be said for the genus of carnivorous plant, Nepenthes as well.

 

[coolnweird]

It really depends. In the carnivorous plant hobby, all species within the Sarracenia genus can hybridize and produce viable, healthy offspring in the vast, vast majority cases. The offspring also exhibit hybrid vigor and loads of very unique characteristics that are not found in the pure species. Interestingly, many species within the genus are threatened and ex-situ conservation is often done (tagging plants with location info) in case reintroduction and/or habitat restoration is ever done.

Some people in the carnivorous plant hobby help with conservation and some don't. Some, like me, do both. We keep pure species and keep and produce hybrids too. And yes, there are tons of undocumented hybrids that look like the pure species, but at the same time, there are also loads of tagged and documented pure species in the hobby (many with location info too) being sold and traded too. It has been happening for years and the two lines of thought have coexisted successfully and the hobby hasn't burned to cinders.

All of the above can also be said for the genus of carnivorous plant, Nepenthes as well.

I'm very familiar with the carnivorous plant scene! I didn't mean to imply that healthy hybrids are impossible, but hybridized animals USUALLY produce offspring that is not viable for one reason or another. Certainly that is not always the case, and tarantula hybrids do appear to be viable in some, even most, cases. Doesn't mean they should be purposefully bred! In my opinion, hybridization in plants vs animals are two separate conversations.

 

[YungRasputin]

I'm very familiar with the carnivorous plant scene! I didn't mean to imply that healthy hybrids are impossible, but hybridized animals USUALLY produce offspring that is not viable for one reason or another. Certainly that is not always the case, and tarantula hybrids do appear to be viable in some, even most, cases. Doesn't mean they should be purposefully bred! In my opinion, hybridization in plants vs animals are two separate conversations.

I agree, plants are one things, arachnids are another - what could be common place in one could be horrid in another

tho i do love me some hybrid plants tho ‍

 

[viper69]

What define a species? Isn't one of the core definition that species don't crossbreed?

Look up the definition and tell us, would be a good education for many here.

It really depends. In the carnivorous plant hobby, all species within the Sarracenia genus can hybridize and produce viable, healthy offspring in the vast, vast majority cases. The offspring also exhibit hybrid vigor and loads of very unique characteristics that are not found in the pure species. Interestingly, many species within the genus are threatened and ex-situ conservation is often done (tagging plants with location info) in case reintroduction and/or habitat restoration is ever done.

Some people in the carnivorous plant hobby help with conservation and some don't. Some, like me, do both. We keep pure species and keep and produce hybrids too. And yes, there are tons of undocumented hybrids that look like the pure species, but at the same time, there are also loads of tagged and documented pure species in the hobby (many with location info too) being sold and traded too. It has been happening for years and the two lines of thought have coexisted successfully and the hobby hasn't burned to cinders.

All of the above can also be said for the genus of carnivorous plant, Nepenthes as well.

Can any of the hybrids eat my stupid neighbors and their loud as hell damn dog that should be turned into shark food?

If so, please PM me.

What new traits are observed??