hybrid pic

[Truff135]

This thread finally took an interesting turn!!! I learn so much from you people, I love it! I'm a biology/anatomy/physiology lover, too, but not nearly as knowledgeable as I'd like to be.

 

[forhorsmn]

:worship: :worship: The thing I love about this site is the amount of knowlage that can be gained by just reading the posts of Cheshire and ShadowBlade. I swear, I need to get out all of my old science books and a couple of different dictionaries just to understand 1/10 of it. This thread was starting to get a little old (yes I read every word of it). BTW Chishire, I've been working on this for the last few days.

For example, what do you think will happen when a tarantula with a dominant phenotype but that has a genotype that's heterozygous for a recessive gene lands into the hands of a breeder who has no idea what they're doing in terms of genetics?

How many of the people reading this do you think will even understand that sentance?

I should have an answer for you between today and....like next year sometime (I think? GOD MY HEAD HURTS).

 

[cacoseraph]

cheshires $5 post doesn't make any dif in taraworld... yet

we don't know what phenotypes are controlled by genes like that

but basically what he said is what would happen if a spider that looks one way but has genes for its offspring to look another way if paired with a similar spider ended up in the hands of someone who didn't know what they are doing


but we know roughly squat about what kind of phenotypes (like, expressed characteristcs govered by genes) exist in nature. in point of fact, a decent amount of why the snake hobby has such a good base in genelore is BECAUSE there was and is so much hybrid'ing going on.

 

[ZoSoLp510]

Here's the part that made me disagree with you:



Creating life to destroy life for selfish purposes is horrible.

And although metallica stated that the odds are 0% of successfully cross-breeding those two species, they have small sacs anyway, so why not just keep them all? If you ever seriously get to that point where you're going to kill perfectly healthy spiders, I'd take them in a heartbeat to prevent it. I'm sure many of us would.

Anyway...unless it's for research purposes (and even that is a little sketchy to me), there's no reason to hybridize. It does ruin the hobby, as you can see by the whole Brachypelma crosses bullcrap.

I think creating life to destroy it later is horrible too, however I think I would disagree with the notion that many on the boards would "take them in a heartbeat."

I seem to remember a time when I tried this experiment and the overwhelming response from the boards was to "freeze" (i.e. kill) any viable sac or offspring.

Fortunately, I was never put in a position to deal life or death as nothing came of my study. I still think it would have been interesting to see if that could have been the key to an unidentified species, but oh well.

 

[ShadowBlade]

I still think it would have been interesting to see if that could have been the key to an unidentified species, but oh well.

How? How would you accomplish this? That's our problem. People think they have access to the knowledge and technology to discover new identifying techniques, if you crossbred a species, do you have the ability to measure the angles of the offspring's organs? (Key identification in some species). I'm gonna say, 'no'.

-Sean

 

[aliceinwl]

I have no problems with hybrids in personal collections, but once they change hands that's where the trouble starts. The individual producing them may take pains to ensure they're properly labled and represented, but once they leave that person's custody, mistakes can occur and pure species lines can end up getting contaminated.

I've run accross a few cases involving snakes. I had a boy in a class I was giving bring in his albino cornsnake. He was planning on procurring a female to pair him with and produce baby cornsnakes. As I was asking him questions about the snake, he said that the individual who had given it to him had said it was an albino jungle cornsnake. He had no idea what jungle denoted and that his cornsnake was actually a cornsnake x kingsnake hybrid; he would have unwittingly marketed the offspring as pure cornsnakes.

There was another case on a forum where a well regarded graybanded kingsnake keeper / breeder was going to embark on a new graybanded kingsnake breeding project. When someone commented that his snakes didn't look pure, he assured them that they were. It turns out there was some confusion when he purchased them. The breeder from whom he acquired them had both pure graybands and hybrids for sale, and through a miscommunication at the time of purchase he ended up thinking that he'd purchased pure graybands when in fact he'd bought the hybrids. (On a really disturbing note there are people that release graybands in the belief they're helping wild populations, and some fishy looking wild caught snakes are occaisionally posted).

In how many cases do these mistakes never get caught? In the case of T's where successful captive breedings are comparitively rare and the captive gene pools of many species are limited, one batch of hybrids passed off either intentionally or unintentionally as something they're not can have a huge impact.

How many "Mexican fantasies" are out there? What are they being bred with? What are their offspring being sold as? If someone posted a picture here of their "Mexican fantasy" because they'd forgotten what it was, what would it get identified as?

If an individual wants to create hybrids for their own edification or for scientific study, that's fine. But, I don't think they should be allowed to change hands.

-Alice

 

[tacoma0680]

I think that is is pretty but I dont think it is a good thing to breed spiders that were not made to be breed just my two cents.

 

[bluegootty]

well u cant eliminate nature crosses..right??? i think it's good dat TalkTalent could provide the pics ..incase there is a hustler in dis industry and try to come up with some bs..sp...and the more we noe the better right?...1 more question for talktalent...wat happen if u hybrid em and then try to breed em back to their origin..(dont mind me , i must b drunk..or just too damn curious..)wow i would like to noe dat....silly me..

 

[ZoSoLp510]

How? How would you accomplish this? That's our problem. People think they have access to the knowledge and technology to discover new identifying techniques, if you crossbred a species, do you have the ability to measure the angles of the offspring's organs? (Key identification in some species). I'm gonna say, 'no'.

-Sean

Surely some of the offspring won't make it through... I think it's safe to say anyone who has bred T's has experienced some casualties. Why not send such specimens off to those who make species ID's for a living? If anyone has access to the knowledge and technology neccesary to do the job, it would be them.

 

[cacoseraph]

i have been thinking about this


i think a hybrid registry might solve a number of the potential problems people have brought up. if i were to ever mess around with making hybrids i would probably start a forum to track them. if anyone other than myself wanted to take part in my experiments and care for some of my hybrids they would have to register and make regular status updates. they would have to give all their various alias for forums and online. they would have to document any thing that happens with the hybrids. that should mitigate a large part of the concern that a hybrid would make it unknown into someones breeding stock

 

[ShadowBlade]

Why not send such specimens off to those who make species ID's for a living? If anyone has access to the knowledge and technology neccesary to do the job, it would be them.

Because of the taxonomists I know, you'd get a 'WTH??' and they wouldn't want anything to do with it.

We already know hybrids are possible, we don't need confirmation. We're already doing controlled experiments with hybridizing, (i.e. Volker's work with cross-breeding Haplo's). They won't want anything to do with, "Hey I just bred B. angustum with B. auratum, take a look at the offspring, tell me what you think".

-Sean

 

[ZoSoLp510]

Because of the taxonomists I know, you'd get a 'WTH??' and they wouldn't want anything to do with it.

We already know hybrids are possible, we don't need confirmation. We're already doing controlled experiments with hybridizing, (i.e. Volker's work with cross-breeding Haplo's). They won't want anything to do with, "Hey I just bred B. angustum with B. auratum, take a look at the offspring, tell me what you think".

-Sean

In that case, forget I said anything lol... I just thought they might be able to make a data base for comparison of hybrids that come in to unidentified species. With something like that, any spider bearing resonable similarities could be checked against a species still in need of ID.

 

[Talkenlate04]

My little goobers are growing up very differently so far.
Albo x Vagans.

 

[chex mix]

wow such an interesting thread. Once u get passed all the flaming, and useless post, there are some really interesting bits of info.

I wanna see some pictures from Chris hahaha

 

[HARLEY-XLH666]

all we need in this hobby is another avicularia messup...

This must have been before my time.......Can someone briefly inform me on this or post a link? Googling "avicularia messup" didn't really give me much.

Best guess....Was this because of hybrids that were mislabled and then sold????

 

[C_Strike]

all you neeed to do is have a read of the P smithi hybrid fiasco to reaslise onl a sinlge, but concerning problem with it.
Set yourself up a research institute with decent protocol. THEN i thin you can safely assure the offspring are not of concern to the hobby. Near enough no one ca 100% identify species at the moment, yet adding mixture spiders wont help, and i think its gonna result in a pretty shitty indentity crisis amongst hobby stock. seems pretty dumb, lol didnt you watch jurrasic park! lol
O not to mention the taxonomic implications, and mess it would cause! I think the theraphosid taxonomic gurus of this world have enough headache understanding as it it

 

[Mushroom Spore]

This must have been before my time.......Can someone briefly inform me on this or post a link? Googling "avicularia messup" didn't really give me much.

Best guess....Was this because of hybrids that were mislabled and then sold????

There was no single event - the whole Avicularia genus is just a mess, things have been hybridized carelessly for a long time, and so now when you buy an Avic half the time you'll never REALLY be sure what the heck you have.

This means that every time someone does an Avicularia breeding, they may even be hybridizing without knowing it and making things worse. That's deeply wrong, and things should never have gotten that bad in the first place.

 

[pato_chacoana]

After reading 2 or 3 pages of this thread, I just skiped to the last one...why? because I can't stand the thought of some people making so many mistakes in the past and doing it again and again and again.......and others wanting to do it because they think they are more responsible or whatever..
We (humans) can't control everything, we lose control and then what, shit happens, but ok let's try another thing, oops that didn't work out so good either, ok let's do it again and make sure we do it right this time ok! oops we f'up again! etc etc etc......
The RISKS are too GREAT.

This is only MY opinion. I don't mean to disrespect anyone.

Pato.

 

[Merfolk]

Also, Ryan, you said those are B. vagans X B. albopilosum? How would you classify them then? Brachypelma vagans-albopilosum? What would be the correct way to identify them?

I am not dead set against such experiment, but vagans X albo is the very last one I would have tried. These sp are not very different looking and so the offspring of those isn't anything spectacular and could easily be mistaken for either one or the other parent species by untrained fellows.

 

[Smilodon]

I personally like hybrids, and I think personal hybrid breeding projects are somewhere on my to-do list. It just seems, even if hybrids eventually wedged their way into being desirable in the hobby, they wouldn't be worth all the work to produce a "pure-bred" hybrid. Perhaps they would, but most species that can be successfully mixed to create a hybrid wouldn't be spectacular or would come out looking a lot like the parents; therefor, all the less reason to make a hybrid when you have the parenting species that look just as nice or better. Dull spiders are just as fascinating to me, but if I work hard on something for years and years, I'd at least like the gratification of being able to show it off; as shallow as that may sound.

With that in mind, I could see a lot of selective breeding going on. Even though they're spiders, there is doubtless hundreds of genes that you'd have to isolate in order to get what you want to make a very desirable hybrid. It would take forever, and it all seems very frustrating to me.

Then again, I suppose I'm only reading into the case if you wanted to get your hybrid into the hobby. Now that I've mapped out the whole thing, the challenge of it turns out appealing... I'll probably end up doing projects like this - it's inevitable. Just my 2 cents on the whole thing....