Hunting for pet trade

snakefactor

Arachnopeon
Joined
Jul 22, 2020
Messages
8
Hey I’m pretty new to T’s, but I’ve been keeping and working with other exotics for many years now.
Of course hunting for the pet trade occurs with many exotic animal species, however I never realised just how common it was with invertebrates!
I know Pterinopelma sazimai is now endangered due to capture for pet trade, so I was just wondering what other keepers’ thoughts on the topic are, eg. Do you actively avoid WC? Do you have an opinion on WC vs CB?
Would love to hear!
 

DomGom TheFather

Arachnobaron
Active Member
Joined
Apr 26, 2020
Messages
363
I love raising captive bred slings
But they have to come from somewhere.
If you want to keep spiders you have to accept it.
Maybe we shouldn't be clamoring for species we know are rare.
 

Stormsinger

Arachnopeon
Joined
Feb 15, 2020
Messages
13
Personally, I am keeping pets and have no plans to breed so I will never knowingly buy a WC animal. WC animals are usually breeding adults that now can't add to their species numbers in the wild, they can have parasites, you don't know how old they are, and the process involved in getting them from the wild to the store or dealer you buy them from is not a nice one and often results in animals that are injured or malnourished.

All that said, WC is important because all captive bred animals originate from WC stock, and I feel that those breeding efforts should be supported because producing captive bred animals lessens the demand to pull animals out of the wild.
 

Jess S

Arachnoknight
Active Member
Joined
Mar 10, 2019
Messages
176
More countries should follow Mexico's example and have tarantula breeding farms to supply the international pet trade, with their captive bred slings. Better for us too, as we can be assured of pure bred stock.
 

jezzy607

Arachnolord
Old Timer
Joined
Dec 29, 2002
Messages
643
The model Mexico now uses is brilliant and I wish other countries would follow suit (including the USA).

Along those lines, I'm ok with/if a few responsible and appropriately permitted/licensed people/groups, responsibly and sustainably (with appropriate protocols) collect enough specimens of a species to start a captive breeding program without making a significant impact on the wild population.

What bothers me, is that even though there are PLENTY of CB T. albopilosus, A. seemanni, and A. avicularia, (I'm guessing) hundreds or thousands are caught from the wild every year still, for the commercial pet store market. I'm sure that has resulted in some local populations being extirpated. Now Aphonopelma chalcodes may be facing the same predicament (high demand for an "easy pet" causing local extirpation, but not overall extinction). I wish there was a sensible way forward to keep the big box pet stores away from the wc market. All of these species are well established in the hobby, it is complete nonsense that so many are still being wild caught.

A gray area for me, is when collectors bring a handful of specimens from a country of origin to their country, under questionable circumstances/methods. Most of the time it has resulted in those species being bred in captivity and they become well established, eliminating the need/demand for wc (legal or smuggled) specimens of those species. It also brings an awareness and appreciation for those species.
 

Vanessa

Grammostola Groupie
Arachnosupporter
Joined
Mar 12, 2016
Messages
2,250
Except for Mexico, there is absolutely zero control over removing tarantulas from the wild for the pet trade.
That results in vast quantities of animals being removed from a location, most often the large reproductive age females, to be transported all over the world. Many of them die in transit and even more die at the hands of ill equipped keepers who have bought them as an impulse buy without doing proper research. Removing the reproductive age females from the population ensures that their numbers drop exponentially over the next several decades. We are seeing the results of this from all over the world.
The people collecting these animals are most often not taxonomists, so, except for a handful of very easily identified species, the species entering the pet trade are of very dubious identification making it almost impossible for someone to breed them ethically. Of course, there is no shortage of people breeding who have no clue what they're doing, so we have a hobby full of hybrids, incorrectly identified species and locales, and 'hobby forms'.
These arguments of 'we have to poach them to reproduce them in captivity' are naive and misinformed in the majority of cases. The hobby is doing absolutely zero to aid in conservation of these species. We're breeding them indiscriminately to make a profit and to drive the price down while wild populations of the same species are still being raped to fill the never ending demand of mostly uneducated impulse shoppers.
 
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TheDarkFinder

Arachnoangel
Old Timer
Joined
Dec 18, 2004
Messages
884
I get this is a touchy subject for a lot of people. I own several species that are currently extinct in the wild. Yes, collecting of wild population is not going to help, but burning down the only place they live and building a shopping mail is not going to help either. Every year I breed thousands of orchid species that have gone extinct in the wild.

I was in a village a few years ago where a species of tarantula had taken up residence in a tree in a public park. I was watching this species and one of the locals noticed me. I told them that they had a pretty rare and beautiful tarantula in this tree. About 30 minutes later, a group of police officials came up, surrounded the tree, took a commercial foggier and killed everything in the tree. Dozens of species of insect dropped from the can canopy. Including 3 members of this species.

I was told this had to happen because of public safety. Any tarantula found had to be killed because of their bites on children.

A few years later is is now illegal to trade the same species I saw killed, in fact I was told that there was less then 28 of them in the wild.

Another species listed by the OP is said to be going extinct do to the pet trade. Well, yes, by any logic one individual removed from the wild can have effects on wild population.

But let us look at the facts on this case. This tarantula only exist in a very limited range, some of that range exist inside a national park.

The national park which is illegal to mine, forest, or collect wild animals.

In 2018 alone, 50% of this national park was burned again. Yes, ranchers have burned this park, illegally, many times. They start illegal fires to burn it every year. They want to make the are uninhabitable and have it turned over to cattle grazing.

Go to google maps and look up Chapada Diamantina National Park zoom in with satellite maps and you will see nothing but burnt landscape.

Given the limited range of this species and the fact that more exist in captivity then ever existed or will exist in the wild, was the pet trade all mother of evil?

Even if we made an attempt to repopulate area that have gone extinct, would the locals allow it?

For a lot of species, the pet trade is the only way to survive. Could we be more effective at protecting and defending wild populations? Of course.

But if we stopped the trade tomorrow many species will still go extinct, not because of the pet trade but because of being killed in the wild.

And the really weird part? Offering to breed to replace the wild population is rejected. EVERY SINGLE TIME. I wonder is if the protection of the species so important or the fact a lot of places want to exterminate them from the start?
 

Vanessa

Grammostola Groupie
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Joined
Mar 12, 2016
Messages
2,250
was the pet trade all mother of evil?
Someone is doing worse than me is not a reasonable defense for poaching.
Removing even more individuals from a population that is already being killed is not a reasonable defense for poaching.
Your one anecdotal story does not mean that in every place in the world tarantulas are being exterminated and nobody cares about them. People DO care about their native wildlife in every country.
There are plenty of places in the world where organizations, and even the government, have gone to great lengths to combat poaching and have introduced laws making smuggling their wildlife out highly illegal. Tarantulas are STILL getting out of those areas.
Using the excuse that you're entitled to smuggle, because YOU feel that the native people are not doing enough to look after them is not a reasonable defense for poaching. You can say that about every single place in the world, because wildlife is going extinct in every corner of the world.
Poaching for the pet trade is not the answer.
 

TheDarkFinder

Arachnoangel
Old Timer
Joined
Dec 18, 2004
Messages
884
Poaching for the pet trade is not the answer.
Do you do that all the time? Just ignore what was written, put up a straw man, and accuse those you disagree with of doing the strawman then rip them apart? I never supported illegal trade, poaching, and/or, smuggling. I never said ANYTHING about them. But you slanderous accuse me of doing so. Why? Why do you feel that if someone brings up that habitat destruction being a cause of extinction, you have to accuse them of supporting poachers? Kind of like me stating that more cars are destroyed by accidents then any other cause and you screaming "you support car thieves!!!"

Do you hold yourself to that logic? Even if you ethically own a collection that comes from 100% legal sources you are part of a system that allows illegal activity? You are supporting the illegal system. And support of that system means you support pouching, by your logic? Of course not. Because that would be me creating a straw man and then slanderously accusing you of things you would never support.

I would never buy a wild caught animal. Period. I have in the past, because 40 years ago it was literally the only way to get anything. I would never support poaching and would use all my power to make sure those that do are punished by law.

So. Why? Are you just be intentionally argumentative? If you want to do that, I am willing to play. I will even play devil's advocate. Do you have a problem with mouth brain filter? God knows my mouth runs on to? Or are you always soo correct when you read something you just replace what ever it is with what you think it should be and argue against that?
 

Vanessa

Grammostola Groupie
Arachnosupporter
Joined
Mar 12, 2016
Messages
2,250
Just ignore what was written, put up a straw man, and accuse those you disagree with of doing the strawman then rip them apart?
You literally spent your entire response deflecting from poaching by using all these other examples of what other factors are involved in their numbers being threatened and you are clearly defending the pet trade by making it out to be the lesser of two evils. Good grief.
 

TheDarkFinder

Arachnoangel
Old Timer
Joined
Dec 18, 2004
Messages
884
You literally spent your entire response deflecting from poaching by using all these other examples of what other factors are involved in their numbers being threatened and you are clearly defending the pet trade by making it out to be the lesser of two evils. Good grief.
Trying to figure you out.

My whole post was on poaching. Here are some highlights.

I would never support poaching and would use all my power to make sure those that do are punished by law.
I never supported illegal trade, poaching, and/or, smuggling. I never said ANYTHING about them.
What topic do you think I was deflecting from?

What is good enough for you?

I was not talking about poaching, you where?

When you slandered me by saying I was for poaching, even though I never talked about it, I addressed it directly. You should really stop with the back handed insults, it proves you don't have a point.

I directly condemned it, telling you it was never supported, and I would want people punished for it, you double down.

What do you want me to say?

Now a question for you. If you are so against the pet trade, why exist on these forums? Literally everything you get near will have supported the illegal pet trade in some way.

You list Pamphobeteus sp. machala as a "beautiful 8+girl" and I agree. But P. Machala comes from southern Ecuador. Chances of that species and your tarantulas parents or grand parents being legally caught is almost 0?

And even if you could say prove every thing is 100% above board, you will still have deal with her being removed from her environment is denying that place THOUSANDS of future spiders.

Do you not follow your own rules?

Does it seem weird that you get to own a beautiful girl like her, denying thousands of future generations, they calling me out for supporting poaching because I said the pet trade might not be so bad for these animals. The very pet trade that put that animal in front of you?
 

viper69

ArachnoGod
Old Timer
Joined
Dec 8, 2006
Messages
10,951
Hey I’m pretty new to T’s, but I’ve been keeping and working with other exotics for many years now.
Of course hunting for the pet trade occurs with many exotic animal species, however I never realised just how common it was with invertebrates!
I know Pterinopelma sazimai is now endangered due to capture for pet trade, so I was just wondering what other keepers’ thoughts on the topic are, eg. Do you actively avoid WC? Do you have an opinion on WC vs CB?
Would love to hear!
CB is best. The massive raping of species is not good. This is why some species are CITES. You can’t have tons of Ts pulled from the wild and expect all to be good.

I get this is a touchy subject for a lot of people. I own several species that are currently extinct in the wild. Yes, collecting of wild population is not going to help, but burning down the only place they live and building a shopping mail is not going to help either. Every year I breed thousands of orchid species that have gone extinct in the wild.

I was in a village a few years ago where a species of tarantula had taken up residence in a tree in a public park. I was watching this species and one of the locals noticed me. I told them that they had a pretty rare and beautiful tarantula in this tree. About 30 minutes later, a group of police officials came up, surrounded the tree, took a commercial foggier and killed everything in the tree. Dozens of species of insect dropped from the can canopy. Including 3 members of this species.

I was told this had to happen because of public safety. Any tarantula found had to be killed because of their bites on children.

A few years later is is now illegal to trade the same species I saw killed, in fact I was told that there was less then 28 of them in the wild.

Another species listed by the OP is said to be going extinct do to the pet trade. Well, yes, by any logic one individual removed from the wild can have effects on wild population.

But let us look at the facts on this case. This tarantula only exist in a very limited range, some of that range exist inside a national park.

The national park which is illegal to mine, forest, or collect wild animals.

In 2018 alone, 50% of this national park was burned again. Yes, ranchers have burned this park, illegally, many times. They start illegal fires to burn it every year. They want to make the are uninhabitable and have it turned over to cattle grazing.

Go to google maps and look up Chapada Diamantina National Park zoom in with satellite maps and you will see nothing but burnt landscape.

Given the limited range of this species and the fact that more exist in captivity then ever existed or will exist in the wild, was the pet trade all mother of evil?

Even if we made an attempt to repopulate area that have gone extinct, would the locals allow it?

For a lot of species, the pet trade is the only way to survive. Could we be more effective at protecting and defending wild populations? Of course.

But if we stopped the trade tomorrow many species will still go extinct, not because of the pet trade but because of being killed in the wild.

And the really weird part? Offering to breed to replace the wild population is rejected. EVERY SINGLE TIME. I wonder is if the protection of the species so important or the fact a lot of places want to exterminate them from the start?
I’ve read about the black market orchid hobby, horrible info.

I would never buy a wild caught animal. Period. I have in the past, because 40 years ago it was literally the only way to get anything.
This was very true for both Ts and reptiles.
 

snakefactor

Arachnopeon
Joined
Jul 22, 2020
Messages
8
I get this is a touchy subject for a lot of people. I own several species that are currently extinct in the wild. Yes, collecting of wild population is not going to help, but burning down the only place they live and building a shopping mail is not going to help either. Every year I breed thousands of orchid species that have gone extinct in the wild.

I was in a village a few years ago where a species of tarantula had taken up residence in a tree in a public park. I was watching this species and one of the locals noticed me. I told them that they had a pretty rare and beautiful tarantula in this tree. About 30 minutes later, a group of police officials came up, surrounded the tree, took a commercial foggier and killed everything in the tree. Dozens of species of insect dropped from the can canopy. Including 3 members of this species.

I was told this had to happen because of public safety. Any tarantula found had to be killed because of their bites on children.

A few years later is is now illegal to trade the same species I saw killed, in fact I was told that there was less then 28 of them in the wild.

Another species listed by the OP is said to be going extinct do to the pet trade. Well, yes, by any logic one individual removed from the wild can have effects on wild population.

But let us look at the facts on this case. This tarantula only exist in a very limited range, some of that range exist inside a national park.

The national park which is illegal to mine, forest, or collect wild animals.

In 2018 alone, 50% of this national park was burned again. Yes, ranchers have burned this park, illegally, many times. They start illegal fires to burn it every year. They want to make the are uninhabitable and have it turned over to cattle grazing.

Go to google maps and look up Chapada Diamantina National Park zoom in with satellite maps and you will see nothing but burnt landscape.

Given the limited range of this species and the fact that more exist in captivity then ever existed or will exist in the wild, was the pet trade all mother of evil?

Even if we made an attempt to repopulate area that have gone extinct, would the locals allow it?

For a lot of species, the pet trade is the only way to survive. Could we be more effective at protecting and defending wild populations? Of course.

But if we stopped the trade tomorrow many species will still go extinct, not because of the pet trade but because of being killed in the wild.

And the really weird part? Offering to breed to replace the wild population is rejected. EVERY SINGLE TIME. I wonder is if the protection of the species so important or the fact a lot of places want to exterminate them from the start?
Can I ask what species you own that are extinct in the wild? As well as the species you saw in the tree
 
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