Humidifier for moisture dependent species?

[Iopil]

Hi, I was wondering if instead of wetting substrate, could I instead use a humidifier for a tarantula enclosure? I'm genuinely curios if this is like possible or not.

 

[AphonopelmaTX]

Using a humidifier alone will not satisfy the needs of a species that needs damp soil. Ground dwelling species from tropical rainforests need to be in contact with the wet soil, presumably because the damp pocket of air between the surface of the ground and the tarantula's body is needed for respiration, hydration, prevention of evaporative water loss, or a combination of three. This is why humidity is not relevant to proper care and housing of such species.

 

[l4nsky]

Oh I feel one of those threads coming on lol.

Using a humidifier alone will not satisfy the needs of a species that needs damp soil.

Agreed, but...

Ground dwelling species from tropical rainforests need to be in contact with the wet soil, presumably because the damp pocket of air between the surface of the ground and the tarantula's body is needed for respiration, hydration, prevention of evaporative water loss, or a combination of three. This is why humidity is not relevant to proper care and housing of such species.

That damp pocket of air above the substrate would best be described as a very humid microclimate ie humidity is relevant.

Hi, I was wondering if instead of wetting substrate, could I instead use a humidifier for a tarantula enclosure? I'm genuinely curios if this is like possible or not.

I'm probably one of the few people who have even attempted this and I can say that it does work to a certain extent, but the system needs to be designed very, VERY carefully to be effective. Even then, it won't ever completely replace the need for a moist substrate. Instead, they're best used to slow the evaporative moisture loss from the soil, reducing the need to add water.

Here is one of my prototype enclosures. You can see the burrow humidity is 74.4% (key distinction here, the sensor is measuring the burrow parameters, NOT the enclosure parameters).


This enclosure housed a 0.1 Phormingochilus sp Sabah Blue, a moisture dependent species. This enclosure wasn't opened for the 30 days prior. Look how dry it is.

As the substrate lost moisture over that time period, it actually began to contract away from the walls of the enclosure.


But why didn't I open the enclosure for a month or add any moisture to the substrate? Because someone had hung a proverbial do not disturb sign on her door.


And I didn't want to disturb her at all while she was doing something very important .


So yes, it is possible to use a humidifier to a certain extent, but IMHO, you're approaching the bleeding edge of the hobby here. My designs are ~4 years in the making and I'm currently on v3 of the prototypes. I can say the money and time invested alone has been rather substantial, so if you're asking simply because you don't want to water the substrate, then it's not worth it in that case.

 

[viper69]

Hi, I was wondering if instead of wetting substrate, could I instead use a humidifier for a tarantula enclosure? I'm genuinely curios if this is like possible or not.

It’s certainly possible to use, others have successfully used misting systems on a select species

However what species did you have in mind? Most species do not need it

 

[arthurliuyz]

Oh I feel one of those threads coming on lol.


Agreed, but...


That damp pocket of air above the substrate would best be described as a very humid microclimate ie humidity is relevant.


I'm probably one of the few people who have even attempted this and I can say that it does work to a certain extent, but the system needs to be designed very, VERY carefully to be effective. Even then, it won't ever completely replace the need for a moist substrate. Instead, they're best used to slow the evaporative moisture loss from the soil, reducing the need to add water.

Here is one of my prototype enclosures. You can see the burrow humidity is 74.4% (key distinction here, the sensor is measuring the burrow parameters, NOT the enclosure parameters).
View attachment 430089

This enclosure housed a 0.1 Phormingochilus sp Sabah Blue, a moisture dependent species. This enclosure wasn't opened for the 30 days prior. Look how dry it is. View attachment 430090

As the substrate lost moisture over that time period, it actually began to contract away from the walls of the enclosure.
View attachment 430091

But why didn't I open the enclosure for a month or add any moisture to the substrate? Because someone had hung a proverbial do not disturb sign on her door.
View attachment 430092

And I didn't want to disturb her at all while she was doing something very important .
View attachment 430093

So yes, it is possible to use a humidifier to a certain extent, but IMHO, you're approaching the bleeding edge of the hobby here. My designs are ~4 years in the making and I'm currently on v3 of the prototypes. I can say the money and time invested alone has been rather substantial, so if you're asking simply because you don't want to water the substrate, then it's not worth it in that case.

This tub houses an adult Phormingochilus sp. "Sabah Blue", right? Interested in the dimensions of the tub, thanks.

 

[AphonopelmaTX]

Agreed, but...

That damp pocket of air above the substrate would best be described as a very humid microclimate ie humidity is relevant.

Not exactly. Water one side of the soil of an Aphonopelma hentzi (or Grammostola rosea, or some other species that likes it dry) and the tarantula will walk away from the wet soil even though the humidity will be raised. Do the same with a Theraphosa stirmi and the tarantula will walk toward and rest on top of the wet soil. I may have been unclear when I said humidity is irrelevant, but what I meant was the amount of humidity is irrelevant. Humidity keeps a tarantula from drying out quickly, and is therefore needed to some degree. I have always thought that no tarantula species should be kept "bone dry" for any amount of time and practice what I preach by watering the soil on one side of every one of my tarantula's enclosures no matter what climate they are found in naturally. The purpose of which is to raise the humidity. If one's room containing tarantulas is perpetually dry, then using a humidifier in the room certainly doesn't hurt, but watering the soil in an enclosure is better as it allows the water vapor to fill the inside of the container where the tarantula is. Watering the soil will also allow the tarantula to choose what it needs.

 

[Dorifto]

Not exactly. Water one side of the soil of an Aphonopelma hentzi (or Grammostola rosea, or some other species that likes it dry) and the tarantula will walk away from the wet soil even though the humidity will be raised. Do the same with a Theraphosa stirmi and the tarantula will walk toward and rest on top of the wet soil

But the enclosure still will be humid even if they choose the driest part. That's he was explaining, or at least I understood that way.

It's like my pulchra's enclosure, while I keep half of it mostly dry, where she use to stay, the whole enclosure sits between high 60s or high 70s usually. Now if the enclosure dries enough and the external (in house) RH drops a lot, like in winters, she usually moves to moister spots.

It would be nice to know the real rh level at ground level even on "drier" substrates they choose to stay on.

I agree with you that the most effective and easiest way to provide certain degree of humidity it's to add moisture to the substrate, and imho it's the method most people should use.

 

[cold blood]

They need damp substrate, not humidity...the moisture in the air above the t is pretty much irrelevant

 

[AphonopelmaTX]

But the enclosure still will be humid even if they choose the driest part. That's he was explaining, or at least I understood that way.

It's like my pulchra's enclosure, while I keep half of it mostly dry, where she use to stay, the whole enclosure sits between high 60s or high 70s usually. Now if the enclosure dries enough and the external (in house) RH drops a lot, like in winters, she usually moves to moister spots.

It would be nice to know the real rh level at ground level even on "drier" substrates they choose to stay on.

I agree with you that the most effective and easiest way to provide certain degree of humidity it's to add moisture to the substrate, and imho it's the method most people should use.

The question in this thread was asking if a humidifier is adequate for moisture dependent species instead of wetting the soil. The answer is no, because a moisture dependent species needs to be in contact with wet dirt to feel comfortable regardless of what the actual relative humidity percentage is in the enclosure. I was only speculating as to why that is by stating that a damp air pocket forms underneath the tarantula's body which could be required for proper respiration, to prevent water loss through evaporation, or to provide hydration. The amount of moisture in this hypothetical air pocket underneath a tarantula's body would be much higher than in the surrounding air above the tarantula. You can easily test this by putting the probe of a hygrometer on the surface of the soil and compare the value to the probe at the top of an enclosure. I have done this, and can confirm the soil surface has a much higher RH value than at the top or outside of an enclosure after several hours. The result makes sense because water vapor does not have a chance to diffuse in the enclosure before the reading is taken. It is very easy to test and verify. You don't even need a live tarantula, just a box of dirt and some water.

Any tarantula can tolerate a high level of humidity in the enclosure. A Grammostola pulchra, for example, can be perfectly fine in an enclosure with a relative humidity value of 70% or above so long as the soil is dry. To your point, if any tarantula requires additional moisture, it will move toward wet dirt but it will move away when its needs have been met. This observation can also support the statement that it is better to pour water in the soil than to rely solely on a humidifier for any tarantula species whether they depend on soil moisture or not. Doing so allows the tarantula to choose what it needs and leaves out the guess work for the keeper.

 

[Dorifto]

The question in this thread was asking if a humidifier is adequate for moisture dependent species instead of wetting the soil. The answer is no

He didn't ask explicitly if they can be used for moisture dependant species. Right now I have two terrestrial Ts in mind that could be kept that way, since their soil it's xeric. GBBs and balfouris have a pretty humid climate but almost no moisture nearby, so it's possible? Yes. Would I kept them that way? NO

Imho providing some moisture in the substrate aside from providing them with a nice humid enclosure, not only the few mm as it converts the whole enclosure in a microclimate, it provides them safe spots to shelter in case they find their actual conditions unfavorable, as I mentioned before using my pulchra's behaviour.

For moisture dependant species, obviously I wouldn't solely rely on this kind of systems, as they evolved for other type of conditions (soil+air).

They need damp substrate, not humidity...the moisture in the air above the t is pretty much irrelevant

Sorry CB, but that phrase falls by it's own weight, and repeating it chage it.

The air above them it's what dehydrates them. Without a moisture source in the substrate, the air's moisture level (humidity) it's what determines how much faster they will loose their moisture, so yes it's relevant.

Should people focus their husbandry on any specific numbers? No. Providing an appropiate moisture source it's enough to keep the whole (air+substrate) enclosure humid, not being affected by any excessively dry conditions. And with appropiate I mean from a simple water dish to a moist substrate.

Simply because adding moisture it automatically raises humidity, does not make it irrelevant, there are other factors that can alter those numbers, like the keepers climatic conditions, amount of ventilation, the volume, soil etc. and even adding moisture to it, the enclosure still can be quite dry.

Unfortunatelly we see a lot of people believing that the Ts are not affected by humidity and then asking why their T it's dying if they kept them dry because people suggested to keep them that way. And repeating that humidity is irrelevant will make it even worse.

It's way better to educate, than make them look elsewhere in order to not focus their husbandry on it. Educating we cut the problem from the root, otherwise always will be someone that won't be agree with that statement and will try to keep them humid incorrectly.

 

[AphonopelmaTX]

He didn't ask explicitly if they can be used for moisture dependant species.

The title of the post reads "Humidifier for moisture dependent species?"

 

[Dorifto]

The title of the post reads "Humidifier for moisture dependent species?"

Lol

My bad didn´t read the title hahahahaha

I read humidifier and my mind just tought this is gonna be interesting xD

 

[cold blood]

Sorry CB, but that phrase falls by it's own weight, and repeating it chage it.

I cant even figure out what you are trying to say here......falls by its own weight....huh? what does that even mean??

The air above them it's what dehydrates them. Without a moisture source in the substrate, the air's moisture level (humidity) it's what determines how much faster

See, here is where you are completely ignoring what's being said...as both tx and I said, moisture does need to be in the substrate...dry air wont dehydrate them if the sub remains damp, period...so why would you ignore that and pretend that adding moisture to the substrate for some reason wouldn't happen and sub would be dry??....its the whole critical deal for keeping moisture dependents, damp sub.....yes, dry air will mean you have to add water more often, but that's it...and that is literally as simple as things could possibly get....when it dries, add water. When the air is humid, you simply add less water, less often...super simple and this means you can indeed keep your moisture dependents at any humidity level (I have for over 2 decades without issue).

Mine do fine all winter when the space heater and furnace have the humidity at darn near zero in the t room....no problem though, as I simply keep the sub damp.

asking why their T it's dying if they kept them dry because people suggested to keep them that way. And repeating that humidity is irrelevant will make it even worse.

I am still waiting for this one to happen. Fact is that too much moisture is more dangerous than not enough....keep things humid and one is simply more likely to over-moisten the sub....which always leads to bad things.

I will even repeat it...the moisture in the air above the t, is completely and totally irrelevant....they aren't frogs, they don't need an enclosure full of moisture, they instead just need damp sub.

If you were right about humidity, I would have dead ts by the bucketload all winter long...I don't.

The only humidity that matters a lick is the layer above the substrate and below the book lungs, and this is accomplished through....yep, you guessed it, damp sub.

Simply because adding moisture it automatically raises humidity, does not make it irrelevant,

Sure it does, cause its all about the substrate, not the air...these are arachnids, not amphibians.

Damp sub raises humidity where it counts, just above the surface of the substrate, as TX mentioned, he measured it and the humidity isn't at the top of the enclosure, its concentrated just above or at the sub, where it needs to be for a tarantula.

Unfortunatelly we see a lot of people believing that the Ts are not affected by humidity

Perfect, then a lot of people will have an easier time being successful keeping moisture dependent species.

 

[Dorifto]

I cant even figure out what you are trying to say here......falls by its own weight....huh? what does that even mean??

You can't call something irrevelant and just after that (implicitly) say it's relevant. Adding moisture, it raises enclosure's humidity and it's this humidity the one that protects them. If only the few mm mattered, we shouldn't see any cases of dehydration or molting issues, and that's not the case.

See, here is where you are completely ignoring what's being said...as both tx and I said, moisture does need to be in the substrate...dry air wont dehydrate them if the sub remains damp, period...

The same damp substrate that raises humidity inside?

so why would you ignore that and pretend that adding moisture to the substrate for some reason wouldn't happen and sub would be dry??

Because it's what people do. Not you, always said and will said that you keep them right, I don't know why you always turn the subject around you, I'm not talking about you, but about a strong statement that makes people confuse about something pretty easy to understand.

its the whole critical deal for keeping moisture dependents, damp sub.....yes, dry air will mean you have to add water more often, but that's it...and that is literally as simple as things could possibly get....when it dries, add water. When the air is humid, you simply add less water, less often...super simple and this means you can indeed keep your moisture dependents at any humidity level (I have for over 2 decades without issue).

And that's how should be kept, I'm not saying anything different than that. But in this sentence, again, you are implicitly saying that something supposedly irrelevant it's affecting them, and if it is irrelevant it shouldn't be affecting them.

Mine do fine all winter when the space heater and furnace have the humidity at darn near zero in the t room....no problem though, as I simply keep the sub damp.

Me 20% and a fully moist thriving xaxim background gone in one single day (2 at max), and you know how much moisture it is in my vivs. Now imagine what these values can do over time.

It will depend on the enclosure type, size, ventilation etc. So again, affects them.

I am still waiting for this one to happen. Fact is that too much moisture is more dangerous than not enough....keep things humid and one is simply more likely to over-moisten the sub....which always leads to bad things.

Check FB, every single week there is a post about it.

If humidity it's irrelevant, how can lead to bad things if you add too much? Again another nonsense.

High humidity numbers won't be bad if always there is a good amount of airflow. High humidity numbers will be bad if it lacks it.

Low humidity numbers won't be so bad if you lack ventilation (wich raises it...) But will be bad if there is a lot ventilation.

Irrelevant right?

Past avic sads vs actual avic sads. Being kept excessively humid vs being kept too dry.

I will even repeat it...the moisture in the air above the t, is completely and totally irrelevant....they aren't frogs, they don't need an enclosure full of moisture, they instead just need damp sub.

My Ts are croaking right now

If you were right about humidity, I would have dead ts by the bucketload all winter long...I don't.

No, because you are raising you enclosure's humidity by adding moisture to the substrate. If the enclosures were at 0% they would be dead. More likely that your setups are above 40-50s mark, not your room. I only care about external values to adjust the husbandry, like you do adding moisture more often.

Sure it does, cause its all about the substrate, not the air...these are arachnids, not amphibians.

Damp sub raises humidity where it counts, just above the surface of the substrate, as TX mentioned, he measured it and the humidity isn't at the top of the enclosure, its concentrated just above or at the sub, where it needs to be for a tarantula.

Damp subs raises humidity across all the enclosure.

Following your criteria, arboreals are dry species? Because under our care, where are those efective few mm? Maybe the air?

Humid air raises, and that's what can suffocate an arboreal even inches from the ground. Too little ventilation and you will have a 100% RH at the top, while the substrate sits far lower. Again something irrelevant doing relevant things.


TLTR? Damp substrate it's what you need to keep them humid. The whole enclosure.

 

[l4nsky]

Yep, one of those threads...

This tub houses an adult Phormingochilus sp. "Sabah Blue", right? Interested in the dimensions of the tub, thanks.

Too small lol. It's a Sterilite 1932 which is a 5 gallon tote. Sterilite's website lists the interior dimensions as 12" x 8 5/8" x 9 5/8". She was about 6.5" DLS when this picture was taken last December, so not quite fully grown. She's still in a 1932 and over 7" DLS now. Her and my other female Sabah Blue will both be getting rehoused into larger enclosures next molt. They'll more than likely be modified Sterilite 1934's which are 13.5 gallon totes with an interior dimension of 18 1/2" x 12 5/8" x 11 7/8".

 

[cold blood]

You can't call something irrevelant and just after that (implicitly) say it's relevant

you read something, but only see what you want to see.....go back and have a look, I said, its right there...I said that the moisture in the air above the t is irrelevant...above the t, get that? Go look, its right there in post # 8.

The same damp substrate that raises humidity inside?

It does just above the surface, but it does little to the air higher in the enclosure....it only needs to create a humid layer above the surface of the sub.

Because it's what people do

People who dont listen or take the time to learn maybe. People do all kinds of dumb stuff, its not the info they failed to read's fault.

you are implicitly saying that something supposedly irrelevant it's affecting them, and if it is irrelevant, it shouldn't be affecting them.

the air above their backs isn't affecting them....only below them, where their book lungs are...the book lungs are under them, not above them.

Check FB, every single week there is a post about it

umm, no, I won't be checking FB... face book is pure garbage.....there are posts every day about a TON of stupid crap on there....its best to avoid it, people there arent looking to learn, they are looking to show off.....do yourself a favor, a big one....delete your facebook account.

If humidity it's irrelevant, how can lead to bad things if you add too much?

too much of anything can lead to problems......it leads to problems because the air can get stuffy, with enough moisture things can even get stuffy in a decently ventilated enclosure.

And before you say too much dry is bad (which I would agree with), understand that no one is saying that, we are saying that there needs to be moisture...IN THE SUBSTRATE.

No, because you are raising you enclosure's humidity by adding moisture to the substrate

You really need to go back and read TX's post...he explained to you that he has measured the humidity on the ground and above the ground and the damp sub only really effects the layer just above the ground.....I feel like you are ignoring what is being said just to be argumentative.

Damp subs raises humidity across all the enclosure.

Nope, it absolutely does not.

Following your criteria, arboreals are dry species?

Maybe the issue here is that maybe you just need more experience with arboreals or something. Avic types are literally the only arboreal tarantula group that would be described as obligate arboreals, and yes, they do just fine kept dry......other arboreals aren't obligate and most actually create burrows or at least spend a good amount of time at ground level....where the damp sub they need can do its job.

Humid air raises, and that's what can suffocate an arboreal even inches from the ground

It does rise, sure, but what are you talking about suffocating an arboreal....most arboreals are kept on damp sub, as I mentioned just above, obligate ones like avics dont spend significant time on the ground....Other arboreals dont have issues with damp sub at all, they certainly dont suffocate because of it...this very notion is absurd.

 

[Dorifto]

Sorry CB, but that's not how humid air works. As soon as you add moisture in a enclosed setup, it goes everywhere, it doesn't stay at ground level where suposedly only affects the T.

When you fill a tub with hot water, you only feel that humid air at surface level, or even standing? Both right?

As soon as you add moisture (water), this will start replacing the Nitrogen molecules on it, and being this air lighter, it will go up, filling the whole enclosure. So depending on the setup, you could end up having higher RH values (air) on top than at ground level, funny right? This killed avics in the past, if not they simply wouldn't die, they died suffocated, because of an excessive humid air buildup plus a lack or ventilation. And I don't need any experience with arboreals to know that, if you want to keep using that weak argument against me, keep with it, it won't bother me at all.

You should read your answers to see how inconsistent they are. You say that humidity above the ground is irrelevant, for just after say that damp substrate it's what arboreals need, arboreals that live far from the ground level moisture. If it's irrelevant for terrestrials it'll be irrelevant for arboreals, and it's not. It's relevant for both, as the air doesn't make any distinctions to who affects or not.

Sure that the ground level moisture it's the most important part, but it doesn't magically make air irrelevant. Because if that moisture dissapears, who is preventing them from dehydration? The humid air. And you can keep the air humid without having any kind of dampness in the substrate. Depending on the setup, a simple water dish can be enough to keep an enclosure humid, even with bone dry substrates, hence the myth that some species can be kept bone dry.

Unfortunatelly FB is full of issues because of incongruences like this. And some follow blindly what they read, without even thinking a bit, it's really infuriating how stupid people can be.

This week, there was a guy suggesting to keep ts at a 35-40%RH without knowing the species and even less keepers climatic conditions. Had to answer it of course. I don't know if he deleted the post, it it was deleted because probably he started raging against me, like usually ends, I don't care. The worst part that also makes me laugh it's that most of people that believe that they keep ts "dry" are actually keeping them humid

 

[cold blood]

arboreals that live far from the ground level moisture.

there is where experience plays the role...your assertion is blatantly false. This helps us understand why you continue to argue against experience in favor of your theories.

 

[Chris LXXIX]

A nice tea spoon of vermiculite (fine grain) mixed well in the substrate (when preparing the set up, of course) is your friend, and cost less than a humidifier, which is basically useless for that task

Seems that this "humidity/moisture dependent species" is like Freddy Krueger for certain keepers. Reality: It's a non issue, quite easy.
Moist substrate + good ventilation = End of the story.

 

[Dorifto]

there is where experience plays the role...your assertion is blatantly false. This helps us understand why you continue to argue against experience in favor of your theories.

Sure, experience changes the laws or physics