How Dangerous are Phoneutria Really

[ReignofInvertebrates]

Before I get into the topic of this thread, let me first state that I am in no way, shape, or form condoning keeping these arachnids without taking extreme care and precaution. No one should even consider it without years and years of experience with fast and defensive spiders. I understand that Phoneutria DO have extremely potent venom and ARE capable of killing a person. I also know there’s a sticky thread specifically talking about Phoneutria but it mainly delves into care. If I have any of the information in this thread incorrect, feel free to KINDLY correct me. With that in mind:

These spiders are often regarded as being among the most dangerous/deadly arachnids on the planet, and that’s what has always kept me from keeping them. I’ve had pretty much every other Ctenidae species imaginable because quite frankly they are my favorite family of true spiders by a long shot. Their hunting techniques are absolutely fascinating to watch and they also have gorgeous color. Lately I’ve done a bit of research on their venom because I am interested in eventually keeping Phoneutria but also because I’m just fascinated by toxicology. Most of the statistics I have found seem to suggest that Phoneutria are in fact a tad bit overhyped. Fast, agile, and packing extremely strong venom? Sure. Something that should be absolutely reserved for experienced keepers? Sure, but how much more deadly than your average Latrodectus are they really? I have no doubt that they’re more defensive than anything in the widow family, but what about the likelihood of serious problems if bitten? Surely they can’t come anywhere close to Sicarius or Atrax.



https://spiders.ucr.edu/deadly-banana-spider-or-not



According to this source, only 2.3% of 422 documented bites required antivenin. I’m not sure if that means that the other 98% received dry bites or were just healthy enough to only experience mild symptoms. There was one death from this sample, and it was a child (definitely a high-risk category). I just can only imagine that if you took 422 randomly selected people and induced a bite from a Poecilotheria, Stromatopelma, or even the aforementioned Latrodectus, you would get similar results in terms of mortality. I suppose one way or another, it’s still a massive risk no matter how cautious you are. Sicarius, for instance, have become quite popular in the hobby despite being possibly the most potent Araneomorph in existence (I realize that they are highly reluctant to bite, but still a dangerous spider regardless). I genuinely hope this thread doesn’t turn into an all-out war zone. That being said, I’m very curious what some of the veterans have to say. If any of you have kept Phoneutria, I’m curious to know how their temperament/speed compares to other Ctenids such as Cupiennius (moved to another family), Macroctenus, or Piloctenus. Are they something that experienced, cautious keepers can handle or should they be avoided at all costs? I have no plans to acquire these spiders anytime in the near future, but perhaps eventually when I’ve gathered enough concrete knowledge on them.

 

[Edan bandoot]

I've heard their bites give you a boner; whole new meaning to banana spider.

I'd reckon they're more potent than latrodectus, as I don't think there's been a recorded death in America from a widow in a while.

That being said they're probably alot more likely to bite than a widow.

 

[Chris LXXIX]

P. nigriventer are actually sold in various Germany (and probably not only in Germany) markets, you can purchase slings for very little money. That species should be always considered highly dangerous (venom potency talking). The fact that several of their bites are "dry" and not "wet", which is indeed true, means nothing in front of what such venom can do.

In my opinion L. mactans (so the average, classical 'U.S. widow' portrayed for decades as the boogeyman by the literature, movies etc) isn't comparable. Sure no one wants to be tagged by a 'widow', let's be honest, but those spiders aren't so unpredictable and high strung like P. nigriventer are. Unlike T's, no matter which, the eyesight of a P. nigriventer is way better, they can climb pretty well thanks to their agile body shape etc in sum, those are no jokes.

Then, in the case of a bite, there's always the logistical issue to consider... Here in Europe we doesn't always have at hand, fast and ready, the antivenom. Medically speaking, no matter the chances %, this has to be considered.

IMO is a species that should be regulated - in a fair enough way, and not in the trade in some sort of darky site just like, and among, the first 'grammo'.

 

[thatdadlife619]

I've heard their bites give you a boner; whole new meaning to banana spider.

I'd reckon they're more potent than latrodectus, as I don't think there's been a recorded death in America from a widow in a while.

That being said they're probably alot more likely to bite than a widow.

I’ve heard the same, but it’s ridiculously painful and then once it’s over, let’s just say nothing is ever the same down there again

 

[Arthroverts]

Sicarius, for instance, have become quite popular in the hobby despite being possibly the most potent Araneomorph in existence

Just a quick check: Sicarius thomiosides, the most commonly-available species in the genus, is similar in terms of potency with Loxosceles laeta. Dangerous still yes, but not quite so toxic to be the most potent araneomorph out there, and even less potent than the African sand spiders, Hexophthalma, as far as it can be gathered. South/Central American Sicarius tend to have less powerful venom by way of having less active sphingomyelinases D (SMase D) than some Loxosceles and Hexophthalma do, though there are of course exceptions, such as with S. ornatus and tropicus.


@Stefan2209 may be able to shed some more light on Phoneutria potency.

Thanks,

Arthroverts

 

[Ferrachi]

Before I get into the topic of this thread, let me first state that I am in no way, shape, or form condoning keeping these arachnids without taking extreme care and precaution. No one should even consider it without years and years of experience with fast and defensive spiders. I understand that Phoneutria DO have extremely potent venom and ARE capable of killing a person. I also know there’s a sticky thread specifically talking about Phoneutria but it mainly delves into care. If I have any of the information in this thread incorrect, feel free to KINDLY correct me. With that in mind:

These spiders are often regarded as being among the most dangerous/deadly arachnids on the planet, and that’s what has always kept me from keeping them. I’ve had pretty much every other Ctenidae species imaginable because quite frankly they are my favorite family of true spiders by a long shot. Their hunting techniques are absolutely fascinating to watch and they also have gorgeous color. Lately I’ve done a bit of research on their venom because I am interested in eventually keeping Phoneutria but also because I’m just fascinated by toxicology. Most of the statistics I have found seem to suggest that Phoneutria are in fact a tad bit overhyped. Fast, agile, and packing extremely strong venom? Sure. Something that should be absolutely reserved for experienced keepers? Sure, but how much more deadly than your average Latrodectus are they really? I have no doubt that they’re more defensive than anything in the widow family, but what about the likelihood of serious problems if bitten? Surely they can’t come anywhere close to Sicarius or Atrax.



https://spiders.ucr.edu/deadly-banana-spider-or-not



According to this source, only 2.3% of 422 documented bites required antivenin. I’m not sure if that means that the other 98% received dry bites or were just healthy enough to only experience mild symptoms. There was one death from this sample, and it was a child (definitely a high-risk category). I just can only imagine that if you took 422 randomly selected people and induced a bite from a Poecilotheria, Stromatopelma, or even the aforementioned Latrodectus, you would get similar results in terms of mortality. I suppose one way or another, it’s still a massive risk no matter how cautious you are. Sicarius, for instance, have become quite popular in the hobby despite being possibly the most potent Araneomorph in existence (I realize that they are highly reluctant to bite, but still a dangerous spider regardless). I genuinely hope this thread doesn’t turn into an all-out war zone. That being said, I’m very curious what some of the veterans have to say. If any of you have kept Phoneutria, I’m curious to know how their temperament/speed compares to other Ctenids such as Cupiennius (moved to another family), Macroctenus, or Piloctenus. Are they something that experienced, cautious keepers can handle or should they be avoided at all costs? I have no plans to acquire these spiders anytime in the near future, but perhaps eventually when I’ve gathered enough concrete knowledge on them.

I'm glad you brought this up again because I'm also curious what the veterans who have had or still have these have to say about their experiences with them...

 

[Spoodfood]

Here’s a taxonomic article on Phoneutria nigriventer venom

An overview of Phoneutria nigriventer spider venom using combined transcriptomic and proteomic approaches

Phoneutria nigriventer is one of the largest existing true spiders and one of the few considered medically relevant. Its venom contains several neurotoxic peptides that act on different ion channels and chemical receptors of vertebrates and invertebrates. ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Here’s one on Sicarius venom

Sphingomyelinase D Activity in Sicarius tropicus Venom: Toxic Potential and Clues to the Evolution of SMases D in the Sicariidae Family

The spider family Sicariidae includes three genera, Hexophthalma, Sicarius and Loxosceles. The three genera share a common characteristic in their venoms: the presence of Sphingomyelinases D (SMase D). SMases D are considered the toxins that cause the main pathological effects of the Loxosceles...

www.mdpi.com

If you’re interested in taxonomy reports, I recommend the group Arachnido on FB. I don’t use FB except for this group, I created an account just to join it after hearing about it on Tom Morans podcast. Pretty cool stuff.

Edit: if you are interested in the group, I feel like I must add it is nowhere near your typical tarantula Facebook group. It is composed solely of scientific articles about all types of arachnids, from venom potency and many other topics. The only people allowed to post these things are arachnologists, entomologists, and the like. It is purely for educational purposes and for people interested in taxonomy.

 

[ReignofInvertebrates]

P. nigriventer are actually sold in various Germany (and probably not only in Germany) markets, you can purchase slings for very little money. That species should be always considered highly dangerous (venom potency talking). The fact that several of their bites are "dry" and not "wet", which is indeed true, means nothing in front of what such venom can do.

In my opinion L. mactans (so the average, classical 'U.S. widow' portrayed for decades as the boogeyman by the literature, movies etc) isn't comparable. Sure no one wants to be tagged by a 'widow', let's be honest, but those spiders aren't so unpredictable and high strung like P. nigriventer are. Unlike T's, no matter which, the eyesight of a P. nigriventer is way better, they can climb pretty well thanks to their agile body shape etc in sum, those are no jokes.

Then, in the case of a bite, there's always the logistical issue to consider... Here in Europe we doesn't always have at hand, fast and ready, the antivenom. Medically speaking, no matter the chances %, this has to be considered.

IMO is a species that should be regulated - in a fair enough way, and not in the trade in some sort of darky site just like, and among, the first 'grammo'.

You’ve got a real point with Latrodectus. You’d have to be doing something pretty stupid to be bitten by a captive one.

In regards to Phoneutria compared to other Ctenids, I’m curious if they are still super flighty when given a large enough enclosure with plenty of hides. I know that people who keep them have made a point about how unpredictable they are, but a vast majority of my Ctenidae don’t budge an inch when I open the enclosure so long as they are in a comfortable spot. I’ve also long wondered if there’s some way to acquire antivenom to have on hand in case of emergencies. I believe I read somewhere that there’s only one company in the world that manufactures it, although that could’ve since changed.

 

[Chris LXXIX]

You’ve got a real point with Latrodectus. You’d have to be doing something pretty stupid to be bitten by a captive one.

In regards to Phoneutria compared to other Ctenids, I’m curious if they are still super flighty when given a large enough enclosure with plenty of hides. I know that people who keep them have made a point about how unpredictable they are, but a vast majority of my Ctenidae don’t budge an inch when I open the enclosure so long as they are in a comfortable spot. I’ve also long wondered if there’s some way to acquire antivenom to have on hand in case of emergencies. I believe I read somewhere that there’s only one company in the world that manufactures it, although that could’ve since changed.

I will give you my honest opinion about. Personally I really think that this species could be cared, without incidents, by the experts (temperament; speed talking etc) altough no matter the level of experience, there's always the possibility of being subjected to various here and there heart attacks .

But the real problem, despite the 'dry' bites %, remains. And it's a huge problem, especially in those Covid messed up times (where E.R's., Hospitals and Docs are under heavy pressure). What "we" can do, what "we" would do, in case of a 'wet' bite, then?

IMO my conclusion about P. nigriventer is that isn't worth the risk, after considering everything at 360° (including a backlashing to the arachnids community as a whole, even if such a thing would be the last issue of the bitten folk, lol)

Edit:

Can't speak about Ctenidae since I don't keep those, but I'm with you on that.

 

[The Snark]

IMO my conclusion about P. nigriventer is that isn't worth the risk, after considering everything at 360° (including a backlashing to the arachnids community as a whole, even if such a thing would be the last issue of the bitten folk, lol)

Sounds about right.

Maybe you and some others can relate to an analogy. Long winded, dreaded by some, anecdote follows.

Spoiler

A family, several generations of gun collectors. Not bang sticks but classic firearms dating back the 1800s. In their collection was a firearm, a . 45-70 issued to an ancestor by the US Army in the late 1800s. It was kept in original condition and well cared for. The present family. Their grandfather had the gun rebuilt to better than new showpiece except something was done that wasn't found on the original firearm. It was taken recently to a top pro gun smithing shop where that part was replaced with an original and at that time it was determined there was what appeared to be a pressure crack at the entrance of chamber.

Three generations of the family got to discussing what to do with the gun. A low key topic of conversation spanning several years. All the guns in their collection were as functional as the day they were made and could be fired. Maybe this one could as well. Maybe the crack was superficial. It was impossible to tell without cutting the chamber open. It possibly could be safe to fire as is. But with that size caliber, if the crack was extensive, it could blow a hand off, or be outright lethal to fire. Assorted schools of thought. The older generation was dead set against having it rechambered. Not original, it would just be a remake of a modern day gun. Others didn't want a gun in the collection that wasn't usable. Keep it as as is as a show piece. But everyone was in general agreement they didn't want a defective firearm in the collection. But nobody was willing to donate a piece of family history to a museum. And the overarcing general sentiment was some fool idiot is going to take that gun out to a range and fire it.
The eldest member of the family sent the gun back to the smiths. A lock, an insert had been fitted in the barrel. The key to the lock was a custom made tool. It was impossible to remove the insert without that tool. The insert was designed to destroy the chamber if simply driven out.

So there on their wall is a phoneutria enclosure. The animal inside frozen in time. Might as well be stuffed. The enclosure locked forever. Why even bother keeping it? But if let out, escape, it could be lethal. A topic of conversation for a few more generations to ponder.

 

[CtenidaeMan]

So I kept and raised Phoneutria nigriventer and boliviensis and all in all I can say that, if you treat them with respect and don't disturb them unnecessary, the danger potential is pretty low. Even during rehousings I never saw a single threat pose from them. They rather like to hide or do the typical Ctenidae pose (as nearly all Ctenidae and some Trechaleidae do when disturbed) with their legs flattened out, waiting for the danger to be over. If you've got experience with some other fast aranomorphae and with some more potent animals Phoneutria care is pretty easy. I don't need to say that you should be always very concentrated during care and rehousings. Providing several hides is also very useful, because the animals are more likely to slowly hide than to go in defense mode. All in all the temperament of Phoneutria spp just gets "overhyped" by people who never kept them. (They are clearly not for beginners, but I see no problem if you've got experience)

 

[Stefan2209]

@Stefan2209 may be able to shed some more light on Phoneutria potency.

I'll be brief, since to my - very personal - opinion this topic has been discussed to death years ago and this often by persons who have zero experience (neither first hand, nor contact to relevant professionals working on the genus, or even following current scientific publications) with this genus at all.

Best current source about bite accidents involving Phoneutria is this:

Envenomation by Wandering Spiders (Genus Phoneutria)

Spiders of the genus Phoneutria, commonly known as wandering or banana spiders, are found in southern Central America (Costa Rica) and throughout South America east of the Andes into northern...

link.springer.com

I also strongly advice to use the cited sources in this paper.

 

[RezonantVoid]

That article was fascinating to read, admittedly I havn't searched much lately but I've been after an article to compare to the envenomation rates of Phonueutria and Atracidae. I'm amazed that only 2.3% of 422 bites needed antivenom, and the only death was a small kid. Atracids like Hadronyche cerberea on the other hand have envenomation rates, most of which require antivenom, of nearly 75%, and can kill adults and children in less than an hour with a full load. At least to me, this solves which of the 2 is more potent per bite

 

[ReignofInvertebrates]

That article was fascinating to read, admittedly I havn't searched much lately but I've been after an article to compare to the envenomation rates of Phonueutria and Atracidae. I'm amazed that only 2.3% of 422 bites needed antivenom, and the only death was a small kid. Atracids like Hadronyche cerberea on the other hand have envenomation rates, most of which require antivenom, of nearly 75%, and can kill adults and children in less than an hour with a full load. At least to me, this solves which of the 2 is more potent per bite

I think the biggest difference is that Atracids almost always deliver a full dose of venom with a bite (if I remember correctly). Some argue Phoneutria venom to be more potent, but they can supposedly control how much they inject based on the circumstances.

 

[RezonantVoid]

I think the biggest difference is that Atracids almost always deliver a full dose of venom with a bite (if I remember correctly). Some argue Phoneutria venom to be more potent, but they can supposedly control how much they inject based on the circumstances.

I do agree with this as well, so I think bite for bite Atracids are far more lethal due to the likelihood of them giving you a full payload of venom. I've got a couple (I'm in Aus, I didn't illegally import them overseas), their reputation is definitely overblown but they are by no means spiders to treat lightly. Most will have venom dripping from the fangs at the slightest provocation