Hottentotta tamulus the world's deadliest scorpion?

[Johnn]

The guineas book of world records has the leirus quinquestriatus as the world's most deadly which is false. it has the most potent venom but the quantity injected is less than others. It used to have fattails as the world's deadliest which is closer to the truth, being that at least some of them are highly venomous and can inject up to 500 ug of venom. But the h tamulus (which I am receiving 5 of tomorrow) had a shocking mortality rate of 30 percent before prozasin was used back in the 1960s and 70s. However, most of it's victims are children. However, interestingly it's subcutaneous ld50 is 7.2 mg/kg which is very high for a deadly scorpions. The ANDROCTONUS AUSTRALIS has a very low ld50 of only .32 mg/kg. It has an untreated mortality rate of only 4 percent though. I wonder why it's mortality rate is so much lower than the h tamulus's? Perhaps mice are just not as affected in proportion to their size as humans?

 

[Dry Desert]

The guineas book of world records has the leirus quinquestriatus as the world's most deadly which is false. it has the most potent venom but the quantity injected is less than others. It used to have fattails as the world's deadliest which is closer to the truth, being that at least some of them are highly venomous and can inject up to 500 ug of venom. But the h tamulus (which I am receiving 5 of tomorrow) had a shocking mortality rate of 30 percent before prozasin was used back in the 1960s and 70s. However, most of it's victims are children. However, interestingly it's subcutaneous ld50 is 7.2 mg/kg which is very high for a deadly scorpions. The ANDROCTONUS AUSTRALIS has a very low ld50 of only .32 mg/kg. It has an untreated mortality rate of only 4 percent though. I wonder why it's mortality rate is so much lower than the h tamulus's? Perhaps mice are just not as affected in proportion to their size as humans?

It depends entirely on the environment of the scorpion.
If it is heavily human populated with lots of children running around on the village outskirts, and if that particular scorpion species enters human homes at night or not.
Lab tests are okay for lab data only, not applicable to real world occurances.

 

[The Snark]

It depends entirely on the environment of the scorpion.
If it is heavily human populated with lots of children running around on the village outskirts, and if that particular scorpion species enters human homes at night or not.
Lab tests are okay for lab data only, not applicable to real world occurances.

Exactly. It's the same as the discussion @darkness975 and I were having regarding Latrodectus venom potency: https://arachnoboards.com/threads/understanding-ld50-values-in-latrodectus-sp.359003/

 

[Outpost31Survivor]

The guineas book of world records has the leirus quinquestriatus as the world's most deadly which is false. it has the most potent venom but the quantity injected is less than others. It used to have fattails as the world's deadliest which is closer to the truth, being that at least some of them are highly venomous and can inject up to 500 ug of venom. But the h tamulus (which I am receiving 5 of tomorrow) had a shocking mortality rate of 30 percent before prozasin was used back in the 1960s and 70s. However, most of it's victims are children. However, interestingly it's subcutaneous ld50 is 7.2 mg/kg which is very high for a deadly scorpions. The ANDROCTONUS AUSTRALIS has a very low ld50 of only .32 mg/kg. It has an untreated mortality rate of only 4 percent though. I wonder why it's mortality rate is so much lower than the h tamulus's? Perhaps mice are just not as affected in proportion to their size as humans?

Androctonus australis and Hottentotta tamulus are synanthropic species Leiurus largely isn't. They pose a higher risk to children but the immunocompromised (high blood pressure, diabetes, etc) and elderly (weakened immunities) are also high risk groups. Do not rely on acute toxicity tests and their LD50 numbers there are too many factors that can impact the final results (human error, lab protocols, breed of mice, scorpion health, scorpion population samples, etc). If it has confirmed human fatalities (children or otherwise) it poses a >potential< health risk to anybody and everybody.

I am aware of an individual that suffered a very serious sting by his captive adult Androctonus amoreuxi, here is his sting report:


"I was tagged by the Egyptian yellow fattail back in February. Omg let me tell u that was worst experience ever had go through. I'm lucky even be here. Spent 3 days in icu

my blood pressure went up to 190/180 alot of pain, no antivenom available since live in Minnesota. Heart rate was 130 beats a min the stuck me in icu for 24 hours . They air lifted me from hospital was at to Minneapolis. Worst pain ever experienced

if wasnt for insurance that helicopter ride it self was about 30,000 alone

fattails are very very painful and will raise heart rate and bp for sure. They kept giving me x rays every 3 min to make sure my lungs didn't fill up with fluid. The toxicologist and posion control was on phone each other finding out how treat me bc we live in Minnesota and don't deal with that here. So wife had send pics to Dr so he could put portfolio together case happens again. As soon as I got hospital I collapsed. I rember when I was in helicopter the one chick grabbed my hand and said stay with me and I rember getting to icu and bc pain I blacked out. They gave me 4 rounds of fentrill and 3 adamant at one time to keep me calm so venom wouldn't spread faster. Again there wasn't antivenom available either so all could do is watch and wait."

Please bear in mind, he was not a small sized individual but also become known for his lack of respect for Buthids particularly Androctonus. He had it coming.

 

[The Snark]

Do not rely on acute toxicity tests and their LD50 numbers there are too many factors that can impact the final results (human error, lab protocols, breed of mice, scorpion health, scorpion population samples, etc).

Needed repeating.
In the US bees and wasps are the number 1 people killer. Venom is not considered lethal.

 

[Outpost31Survivor]

Needed repeating.
In the US bees and wasps are the number 1 people killer. Venom is not considered lethal.

Hymenoptera venom allergy is quite common and therefore why they are the number 1 people killer it has nothing to do with the potency of the venom unlike medically significant scorpions, these scorpions are armed with specific anti-mammalian toxins that specifically target mammalian potassium channels and sodium channels.

 

[The Snark]

@Outpost31Survivor Anaphylaxis and toxic shock will always be a potential factor regardless of venom. Either can be lethal. More so than any venom going by mortality rates.

 

[Outpost31Survivor]

@Outpost31Survivor Anaphylaxis and toxic shock will always be a potential factor regardless of venom.

Yes but it is exceptionally rare in scorpion stings. In the past, there were controversial use of opioids to treat scorpion stings plus there is a potential allergic reactions to antivenoms too. Antivenoms can potentially be more lethal than the scorpion sting itself.

 

[The Snark]

Yes but it is exceptionally rare in scorpion stings. In the past, there were controversial use of opioids to treat scorpion stings plus there is a potential allergic reactions to antivenoms too. Antivenoms can potentially be more lethal than the scorpion sting itself.

We're in the realm of academic now. Undoubtedly TSS, Toxic Shock Syndrome is present to some degree in virtually all venomous bites and stings. And absolutely, where a venom may produce an anaphylactic reaction, around 50% of the time anti venoms produce the reaction to some degree. Plus antivenin is often a gift that keeps on giving, hypersensitizing the patient for life. As in my case. Shut down the rattler venom and left me with anaphylaxis from bees wasps and ants - now decades down the road.

@Outpost31Survivor Can't see the forest for the trees. Concern over a particular scorpion pales into utter triviality placed next to food allergies.

 

[Outpost31Survivor]

@John John yak

Not sure if you have been banned from this site or not BUT do not handle medically significant scorpions like Leiurus because it is great way to land yourself in the ICU or ER. Especially do not get yourself intentionally stung by H. tamulus. You have no clue how many times you may be stung, the amount of venom used by the scorpion, how your body may react, and the severity of the sting. In the case of severe stings, delayment of medical attention can lead to poorer medical diagnosis. So basically you are just asking for trouble where none should be necessary. Be safe and respect your animals.

 

[Dry Desert]

@John John yak

Not sure if you have been banned from this site or not BUT do not handle medically significant scorpions like Leiurus because it is great way to land yourself in the ICU or ER. Especially do not get yourself intentionally stung by H. tamulus. You have no clue how many times you may be stung, the amount of venom used by the scorpion, how your body may react, and the severity of the sting. In the case of severe stings, delayment of medical attention can lead to poorer medical diagnosis. So basically you are just asking for trouble where none should be necessary. Be safe and respect your animals.

Various factors that some seem to forget.

Firstly it depends on whether the creature administering the venom considers the predator to be a life threatening risk, or just an annoyance.
Then it will adjust the amount of venom injected, or how many times.
Secondly, everyone is different regarding "sting reports ".
Some may shrug a near dry sting as nothing.
Others may have very serious reactions to any further stings.

There is NO hard and fast reference to either venom toxicity, or " sting reports " with the latter being up there with YouTube evidence.

 

[Outpost31Survivor]

Various factors that some seem to forget.

Firstly it depends on whether the creature administering the venom considers the predator to be a life threatening risk, or just an annoyance.
Then it will adjust the amount of venom injected, or how many times.
Secondly, everyone is different regarding "sting reports ".
Some may shrug a near dry sting as nothing.
Others may have very serious reactions to any further stings.

There is NO hard and fast reference to either venom toxicity, or " sting reports " with the latter being up there with YouTube evidence.

Most species that have undergone toxin studies and acute toxicity tests (LD50) have done so only because they have proven to be a risk to human safety. They are the cause of numerous stings that resulted in numerous hospitalizations and/or human fatalities. Have you ever wondered why more Androctonus species have not been studied and tested? It's because they are concerned with the biggest offenders foremost namely amoreuxi, australis, bicolor, crassicauda, liouvillei, and mauritanicus. Same thing with Leiurus namely abdullahbayrami, hebraeus, and quinquestriatus. The other species will hopefully receive attention inevitably so we can learn more about these genera.

Medically significant species earn that title through confirmed cases of causing human morbidity and/or human fatalities.

But yes, there are alot of indeterminable variables that may influence the seriousness an envenomation from a medically significant scorpion including the ones you listed but also the season (summer experience more and worst stings), the size of the scorpion, the diet of the scorpion, the health of the scorpion, locality of the scorpion (e.g. not all L. quinquestriatus carry the same toxins or bear the same level of toxicity, not all H. tamulus carry the same toxins or bear the same level of toxins, etc, there is geographical intraspecies variability of both toxins and toxicity), the age and size of the victim (venom toxicity is weight dependent), and the health of the victim.

Believe or not individuals can and do suffer mild stings from Androctonus, Leiurus, Parabuthus, and other medically significant species but it is not something anyone should ever gamble with their life over. @John John yak

 

[The Snark]

@Outpost31Survivor @Dry Desert I still get a chuckle from this. In certain bioscience classes students all come across the vague phrase 'Do not become a statistic' here and there that is rarely given any thought to.
Until your first significant bite or sting after encountering that phrase. Then it's "OH! So that's what it means!"

For me, a rattler. The reality hit home lying on a gurney with a clerk filling out a form while I was hoping they would amputate my leg.
Then looking down at a nurse starting a cut in the top of my calf length engineer boot - one fang hit the leather, the other my shin - and the swelling split the seam of the boot all the way down to the heel. Welcome to statistic land. The home of complacency, stupid moves and brain farts.