Holothele incei "gold"

Bosing

Arachnoangel
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Just want to ask a quick one. A friend successfully bred his normal Holothele incei pair and he noticed that 4 out of 36 of the slings had a dull brownish coloration after second instar. Does this mean that the "gold" form naturally occurs as a recessive trait within the normal morph?
 

dianedfisher

Arachnobaron
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I've been told that it is a recessive color gene and genetically reproducible. I would think that if you really have 4 of them in your sac, then both parents carry the recessive gene but if that is the case more of the sac should be "gold color morph". I guess Protectyaaneck hasn't seen this. Why don't you give him a shout via IM? He has a sac of the gold color morph right now and he explained the process to me. You are right, in that, somehow, somewhere the original "gold" spiderlings showed up and they had to come from somewhere. The question is how, where and how often.
Diane

I hope they're gold. You can start your own colony.
 

xhexdx

ArachnoGod
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They shouldn't be dull brownish...they should be light gold/tan.

If both parents carry the (recessive) gold gene, then approximately 25% of the sac should produce gold offspring, 50% will be carriers, and 25% will not have the gold gene at all.
 

Anastasia

Arachnoprince
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They shouldn't be dull brownish...they should be light gold/tan.



If both parents carry the (recessive) gold gene, then approximately 25% of the sac should produce gold offspring, 50% will be carriers, and 25% will not have the gold gene at all.
interesting, how did you come up with all this calculations? is there more information on this?
I would think if both parents are Gold color form all offspring's will be Gold is well.
I am working on both color forms now, I bred gold with regular incei just to see for my self what would happened
 

kylestl

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interesting, how did you come up with all this calculations? is there more information on this?
I would think if both parents are Gold color form all offspring's will be Gold is well.
I am working on both color forms now, I bred gold with regular incei just to see for my self what would happened
If gold is in fact a true recessive gene then his calculations are correct and the outcome of your breeding would be all regular incei's that carry the gold gene. Not saying I am right, just saying what it would be if the gold is a recessive gene.
 

xhexdx

ArachnoGod
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interesting, how did you come up with all this calculations? is there more information on this?
I would think if both parents are Gold color form all offspring's will be Gold is well.
I am working on both color forms now, I bred gold with regular incei just to see for my self what would happened
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punnett_square

Let me also quote myself:

If both parents carry the (recessive) gold gene, then approximately 25% of the sac should produce gold offspring, 50% will be carriers, and 25% will not have the gold gene at all.
Anastasia, I never said anything about both parents being the gold color form, I said if they carry the recessive gold gene.

This means they would look normal but carry gold.

Here's a (crude) punnett square to illustrate two potential pairings.

Here we have two individuals who are not gold, but carry gold. The gold gene is represented by the lowercase 'g', as it is recessive. Having a double-recessive (gg) indicates that this individual would actually display the gold trait.

...G_ g_
G|GG|Gg|
g|Gg|gg|

GG = individual who does not have the gold gene at all
Gg = individual who carries gold, but does not display it
gg = individual who carries and displays the gold gene

Using the above square, we see that 25% of the offspring would not have the gold gene at all, 50% would carry it, and 25% would actually be gold.

Using Anastasia's example (gold paired with non-carrying normal):

...G_ G_
g|Gg|Gg|
g|Gg|Gg|

As kylestl said, you'd get 100% carriers, but none would actually be gold. To prove this, Anastasia, you will need to take offspring from that pairing and pair them to each other. The result should be 25% gold offspring.

This is all assuming gold is a recessive gene, as I believe it is.

One final square:

...g_ g_
g|gg|gg|
g|gg|gg|

Protectyaaaneck's sac proves this square to be true and accurate.
 

DaveM

Arachnolord
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xhexdx is exactly right
--this, assuming a simple dominant-recessive pattern of heritability, and that the phenotype is monogenic (that only one gene is responsible for the gold color).
4/36 recessive is possible (instead of 9/36), because 25% is just an average expectation. Toss a coin ten times, and usually you won't actually get 5/10 'heads'
It would be cool if this trait is so simply inherited; such a tiny fraction of human (and undoubtedly tarantula) traits are.
 

drgonzo

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If gold is in fact a true recessive gene then his calculations are correct and the outcome of your breeding would be all regular incei's that carry the gold gene. Not saying I am right, just saying what it would be if the gold is a recessive gene.
If it is simple recessive
hetrozygus X hetrozygus
25% Homozygus
75% Normal with a 66% chance of being hetrozygus

Gold X Normal
all normal 100% hetrozygus for gold

Gold X Gold
all gold

Has this been proven recessive? If you only have a few you will need to raise them up and breed them to there siblings to prove it genetic.You may have an entirely new dominant,co dominant,recessive,or nothing morph.You may have a recessive gold morph that is not even compatiable with the original "gold" morph.You wont know until it's bred and proven out.
Does anyone have a link to info on the gold morph
 

Quazgar

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xhexdx is exactly right
--this, assuming a simple dominant-recessive pattern of heritability, and that the phenotype is monogenic (that only one gene is responsible for the gold color).
4/36 recessive is possible (instead of 9/36), because 25% is just an average expectation. Toss a coin ten times, and usually you won't actually get 5/10 'heads'
It would be cool if this trait is so simply inherited; such a tiny fraction of human (and undoubtedly tarantula) traits are.
+1

If it is a simple, single gene controlling the color, then there will be a 25% chance, but I would guess (though I don't know) that probably more than one gene factors into the equation, thus changing the probability. I have no idea how many genes play a part, and I would be surprised if anybody has done a good genetic study to find out.
 

Anastasia

Arachnoprince
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punnett_square

Let me also quote myself:



Anastasia, I never said anything about both parents being the gold color form, I said if they carry the recessive gold gene.

This means they would look normal but carry gold.

Here's a (crude) punnett square to illustrate two potential pairings.

Here we have two individuals who are not gold, but carry gold. The gold gene is represented by the lowercase 'g', as it is recessive. Having a double-recessive (gg) indicates that this individual would actually display the gold trait.

...G_ g_
G|GG|Gg|
g|Gg|gg|

GG = individual who does not have the gold gene at all
Gg = individual who carries gold, but does not display it
gg = individual who carries and displays the gold gene

Using the above square, we see that 25% of the offspring would not have the gold gene at all, 50% would carry it, and 25% would actually be gold.

Using Anastasia's example (gold paired with non-carrying normal):

...G_ G_
g|Gg|Gg|
g|Gg|Gg|

As kylestl said, you'd get 100% carriers, but none would actually be gold. To prove this, Anastasia, you will need to take offspring from that pairing and pair them to each other. The result should be 25% gold offspring.
that make sense, now we just have to wait and see if this theory backs up in real life, I have several females gold and none gold paired is well is the other way around (t.e. gold female X non gold male)
 

Projecht13

Arachnoknight
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my brain hurts now......


haha jk. I know its right on paper I cant wait to see the result back it up tho. Cool stuff.
 

xhexdx

ArachnoGod
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that make sense, now we just have to wait and see if this theory backs up in real life, I have several females gold and none gold paired is well is the other way around (t.e. gold female X non gold male)
This is also assuming that your non-gold male isn't a carrier.

If he is, you wouldn't know it until you produced offspring from him.
 

Bill S

Arachnoprince
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As others have stated, the 25%/75% ratios depend on this being a simple recessive based on one pair of alleles. Some color forms are the result of multiple allele combinations, which would greatly alter those figures.
 

Anastasia

Arachnoprince
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This is also assuming that your non-gold male isn't a carrier.

If he is, you wouldn't know it until you produced offspring from him.
Correct, is much is I know he is a at least 4th or even 5th generation none gold offspring
so whats the odds he would carry gold genes?
 

Bosing

Arachnoangel
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By the way, here is the picture of the supposed "gold" sling.



 

dianedfisher

Arachnobaron
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Jason told me that the genetically reproducible part of the hypothesis has already been proven by a breeder (In Europe as I recall). Jason mated gold vs gold and appears to have gotten 100% gold. Since this anomaly only came to light recently, it seems to me that that there could be many heterozygous "original" Holothele incei out there. When you mate them you can get up to 25% of the "gold" without knowing it as it appears happened in this scenario. with neither adult showing signs of the recessive gene.
Diane
 

Protectyaaaneck

Arachnoking
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Who wants to separate them for me? lol

And here I was thinking that versicolor were hard to deal with... :eek:

---------- Post added at 02:22 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:05 PM ----------

By the way, here is the picture of the supposed "gold" sling.



Although that spiderling is pale colored, it doesn't appear to be what is being called and sold as H. incei "Gold". I'm no expert on the subject but they don't look the same just based off what I have in my possession right now and what I've raised in the past. The gold spiderlings I have produced and the ones I have raised in the past all had much more of a copper/bronze carapace while the abdomen usually is pretty dark in contrast. They don't shed the darkish looking abdomen until they get a bit bigger.

Not the best picture and obviously a little bit bigger but I just wanted to show what I was talking about with the coloration:
 

Bosing

Arachnoangel
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wow! Then I start to wonder what this variation of the H. incei is.

Anyone who has produced a similar looking specie?
 
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